Nature of Risk: A Comparsion Between Climbing and Gambling Communities

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Nature of Risk: A Comparsion Between Climbing and Gambling Communities

Page Type: Article

Activities: Mountaineering

Page By: mrwsierra

Created/Edited: Aug 8, 2006 / Aug 8, 2006

Object ID: 213750

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Celebration of Risk

Society works constantly to manage and minimize risk. The best, and most prevalent, example of society’s hedge on risk is insurance. Of course, a buyer’s motivation of the purchase of insurance is to minimize catastrophic consequences, usual financial ones. Even those that hold billions of dollars of assets - bulk mortgage purchasers for example – require that each of their debtors carry homeowner’s insurance.

However, there are those groups of people that celebrate risk, often for its own sake. Two of these communities are the climbing community and the gambling community. Risk-takers are a different type in our society, not easily understood, except by those who share the highs and lows of the particular risk-taking experience, even if they have shared the experience on a far lesser magnitude.

An Overview of On-Line Climbing and Gambling Communities

The most vibrant on-line gambling communities do not involve the shared experiences of mindless drones in a casino playing slot machines, chain smoking their way through a roll of quarters in five or ten minutes, hoping their ship will come in. Of course, the slots can extract quite a bit more than a few rolls of quarters. Just ask cultural values preacher William Bennett or golfer John Daly, who have lost at a minimum $10 million and $50 million respectively at high stakes slots, about that.

What separates poker from other gambling games is the obvious fact that poker is not played against the house, thus making it a game of complex strategy, one which seeks to extract the maximum from other players. This of course requires outthinking, out researching, and outworking the competition.

The intellectual stimulation undertaken by the gambler in the attempt to successfully apply risk management concepts to achieve success is one, not surprisingly, aided by discourse among those with a similar interest. Usually, it takes many years and a singular level of commitment and dedication to reach a high, or even perhaps moderate, level of proficiency. Does this sound familiar to the climber?

To probably the surprise of many, vibrant on-line gambling communities do exist, with forums much like climbing forums such as SP, Supertopo, or cascadeclimbers.com. The most interesting and diverse gambling forums center around playing poker, usually texas hold-em but other poker games are also the subject of discussion.

Often, the discussions involve treatment of sophisticated, cutting edge strategies designed to help members reach ever greater heights. Any poker aficionado or someone with a keen interest in the game should go check out sites such as www.twoplustwo.com. As I write this article, the main event of the World Series of Poker is heating up, an $11 million prize awaiting the last man – or lady perhaps – standing.

Having lurked in both on-line and climbing communities, and having semi-regularly played poker at on point (usually the $3/$6 hold-em game at a local tavern) and climbed a good – relatively speaking compared to some of SP’s more active climbing members- number of mountains over the years, I have observed a series of common threads (no pun intended) between the two communities.

Increasd Risk/Increased Reward/Increased Satisfaction

Foremost above them is a celebration of risk. Not surprisingly, the greater the risk undertaken, the greater the reward and the accompanying adulation and fame. Ask Reinhold Messner or Doyle Brunson about that.

Like those people who wish to graduate to technical climbing after climbing a number of Class 2-3 routes or those who are climbing 5.4 but are working their way up to 5.10, most avid poker players want to move up and “take their shot.” Of course, the bigger the game, the harder it is to beat.

Like the mountaineer, virtually any poker player will locate to reach a level that is beyond their skill level and is therefore no longer safe. This is actually a central theme in the on-line poker community and an overriding goal for a great many of the participants.

Wanting to play for greater stakes, and prove oneself at the higher stakes, is the only way to improve and move forward, the only way to greater achievement. No one remembers with the greatest fondness the easy adventures, but instead the challenging trips – the epics – often become the memories of a lifetime.

Like climbing, some players quickly move through the ranks to ever higher echelons while others seek a level for which they have comfort. Very few, however, remain at a level below our selected risk-comfort threshold. Almost all of us have limits.

Of course that risk-taker will certainly meet with disaster without a firm foundation of the higher-risk game and its intricacies, much like anyone who would approach a big wall or waterfall ice climb without even having trained and mentally prepared for such an occasion. Image playing poker with home equity loan money with people who can read minds better than a crack FBI agent or a polygraph machine. Welcome to the $300/$600 game at the Bellagio.

In most cases, both the high-stakes gambler and the master climber have taken many years to hone their craft to a point not even envisioned by those content at a more recreational levels.

For example, for me the difference between 5.10 and 5.12 is that at 5.10 I can see how to link up the moves but do not have the physical skills to succeed. At 5.12 I can’t even see where the holds are. At 5.8 or 5.9 I have a fighting chance, depending on my level of climbing fitness. At 5.4 to 5.6 I generally feel pretty comfortable, as long as adequate protection is available.

Both groups engage in non-stop application of complex algorithms of their respective trades, the climber constantly accounting for weather changes, number and difficulty of remaining pitches above, adequacy of equipment for a bivy, avalanche or rockfall risk, the climber’s own fitness and attitude and that of fellow rope-mates, the distance to the car, the condition of the rock or ice, tolerance for risk, all weighed against the dreams and aspirations of the climber.

For the poker player, the process of deciding to raise, call, or fold – while more sedentary than mountaineering– is much the same dynamic, constant evaluation of mathematical probabilities, betting patterns, hand history and mannerisms of opponents at the table, ability to tolerate and withstand risk, projecting an image for the other participants, qualitative evaluation of the odds of success, etc. Every single hand and every table is different, just like no two climbs, even of the same route, are exactly the same.

Unlike slots, roulette, or blackjack, poker played at high stakes is a very different game than the super-soft $2-$4 hold-em game at Bally’s in Las Vegas. Right now, there are no limit hold-em games in Vegas where hundreds of thousands of dollars are exchanged between participants in a span of less than a minute. Fortunes have been made and lost during the time it takes to read this article.

The huge variability of the “stakes” in climbing is much the same, as a walkup on Mount Ritter or Mount Conness bears no resemblance to an ascent of the Nose or any route up Mount Robson in the Canadian Rockies or anything in Patagonia or the Alaska Range.

However, it should be remembered even the walk-up routes on Ritter or Conness can be deadly under different circumstances. It seems as though more relatively inexperienced people have died recently on the Mountaineer’s route on Whitney than more experienced climbers have on harder routes nearby such as the East Face or East Buttress of Whitney or Russell’s Fishhook Arete.

Norman Clyde even noted this paradigm decades ago, stating that “properly equipped and careful climbers, however, incur less dangerous exposure on Class 5 and Class 6 routes than untrained men inadvertently may on Class 3 or even Class 2.”

As a strange side note, the principle of knowledge leading to wisdom does not seem to apply to concepts involving avalanche awareness, as detailed in Steve Larson’s excellent treatment of the subject in an article written some months ago.

Is All Risk-Taking Voluntary - Is Some Climbing Behavior Compulsive or a Symptom of Illness?

Note: I attached this photo from Jeff Moore's gallery of gory images from his unfortunate rockfall incident. Although it seems obvious, I would like to make clear that Jeff - who seems like a pretty cool, responsible, and thoughtful guy from his posts and trip report detailing his injuries - is not a subject of this section of analysis, nor is any other specific SP member. I just included the photo to make the point of a potential negative consequence of climbing and mountaineering, some of which unfortunately require paying the ultimate price.

By the way Jeff, hopefully you are well on your way to completely healing -for many including me your accident brought home the fact that we need to be on our game when testing every foothold and handhold even in a rock paradise like the Range of Light.

DISCUSSION

The discussion of risk always leads to an analysis of how much is too much. As discussed above, that level of risk will always be dependent on the circumstances, innate characteristics, and hopes and desires of the player/participant. Even the effect of peer pressure can play a major role in the thought process.

For those who climb, the stakes are always the highest, every time out, so constant evaluation of one’s risk taking is prudent – and probably indispensable. From time to time, most, if not all, climbers, exceed their own acceptable risk threshold. Hopefully though, while we climbers and mountaineers accept and achieve objective challenges that fully engage our hearts, minds, and bodies, we do not regularly take on impulsive tasks that we feel to be well beyond our control.

Where risk taking becomes an unhealthy practice, or even a sign of a mental disorder, is one that the risk-taking community often does not like to address. The addiction to gambling is a common one – one with obvious consequences. There is a good reason the high rollers get their rooms comped at the Bellagio or the Wynn. Sort of a large tax on compulsive behavior, a tax flowing to those who need it least.

Pathological addiction to gambling, sadly an all too common occurrence for poker and non-poker players alike, has even been recognized by the psychiatric community as a form of “mental disorder.” In its simplest form the disorder, whatever is an inability to manage and control risk. However, it is equally obvious that most people who play poker do not have a gambling problem at all.

Nonetheless, diagnosing a compulsive gambler, one out of control, is a pretty easy thing to do if you know all the facts. Usually they have run up massive debts, conceal their addiction from family members, and are depressed and have often considered suicide. Surely any compassionate friend or family member would take heroic steps to try to save the degenerate gambler from the continuing downward spiral. That is certainly the human thing to do.

However, does that same risk/control/intervention line have a parallel in the climbing world? Are some of the members of this site or other on-line climbing communities “addicted” to climbing? Does addicted, in a climbing context, refer to (1) risk of life and limb without proper regard to consequences or does it refer to (2) a pattern of behavior – one that does not seem voluntary to the participant in a meaningful sense - where constant itinerant journeys to the high mountains and the crags cripples one’s employment and/or family relationships?

Putting aside (2), it seems as though the climbing community is resistant to suggesting that any fellow climber’s actions, as a climber, indicate a mental illness or addiction that requires intervention. Of course, there is no doubt that the great majority of 5.10 free soloists, 8,000 meter peak specialists, and extreme skiers enjoy good mental health despite the magnitude of risk involved. But, is this always the case with climbers who take grave risks? Can climbing be for some at heart an addiction worthy of adventure?

A video tape of the late Dan Osman speed running up the Lover’s Leap cliff has been seen by most of the climbing community on the Internet. I do not have the CV to comment on his climbing technique, but my visceral reaction is that of seeing a person with some degree of mental illness.

Others would vigorously disagree with that assessment, including those who may have known Mr. Osman. I am not trying to make an argument one way or another as to Mr. Osman, just sharing an observation almost certainly shared by many others.

Most climbers are at heart libertarians, but a missing element of the frequent recycled debates about the propriety of free soloing high angle rock or other risky climbing endeavors is a discussion of whether the actions of a minority of those free soloists are really a choice, as we all understand that term. A sad example is Lynn Hill’s portrait of the late John Yablonski, a man who had a tortured soul.

I only mention this because it seems to be missing from the frequent debate about the rights and wrongs of high-risk climbing, which is ad infinitum a war of words between those who decry the moral aspect of high-risk climbing with those who believe the level of risk they and others select is a personal choice.

No doubt, there are truths and virtues as to both sides of the coin. However, an ongoing, earnest examination of our actions and priorities of ours and those of our friends and partners is effort and time well spent. To do so thoughtfully is to allow all of us climbers and mountaineers (expert, moderate, and novice alike) to manage risk to the maximum benefit for happiness and contentment rather than letting the risk control us.

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rhyang

Risk

Hasn't voted

A guy I know who leads 5.10's on rock and WI5 on ice and is a medical doctor just recently found out he has cancer. IMO This by far is a greater risk to his life than his climbing.

Having climbed with him and having seen the strength, technique and intelligence he brings to bear upon the endeavor makes the comparison between climbing and gambling seem so shallow and tiresome as to be ridiculous, at least for me.

For some, gambling and climbing may not be too different. In your world, this may be the case. Not in mine.

To me, climbing is not about getting an adrenaline rush or taking excessive risks. It's about the development of strength, technique, and skill - a constructive activity, one based on planning and foresight.

Am I a member of a minority in that belief ? I am curious to know what other people think.

Some people do not spend the time to build up the skills or strengths they need in their climbing pursuits, for whatever reason, and that may get them into trouble. That is an entirely predictable situation, one which I know for a fact that you are familiar with (and probably most of us). Making excuses about why you cannot spend the time to build the foundation you need is not effective - you might as well spend your time on another hobby in that case.

I remember your wife's words after I dropped you off last year after our failed Rainier attempt (mostly due to weather, but partly due to other factors) : "Thanks for bringing him home safe".

Posted Aug 8, 2006 7:48 pm


	lisae	Re: Risk
	Hasn't voted	I tend to agree with you. I certainly hope I am not gambling when I climb. Certainly, when I climb I am minimizing or controlling risks, both by using good judgement on what is beyond me and by using protection systems. I get a rush when I climb, based on what I have accomplished. I've never felt a rush from what little gambling I've done. An aside - I hate casinos. So many miserable looking people and cigarette smoke. Sure different from what I run accross climbing.
		Posted Aug 8, 2006 8:46 pm


	mrwsierra	Re: Risk
	Hasn't voted	Rob, I guess you directed this comment at me, so a response is appropriate. Climbing and gambling are vastly different activities. That was not the purpose of my article, rather it was simply a discussion of risk and how it is considered in two obviously different activities, albeit ones with similar elements. Climbing is a far superior activity to gambling and a damn awesome fine way to spend one's time. Many of the best days of my life have been spent in the hills - I certainly couldn't say that about my own experiences in casinos and cardrooms. I am not seeking to trivialize anyone's climbing experiences. I myself wouldn't trade any of my days in the hills. However, to say climbing is not a risk taking endeavor (or even one that does not produce the occasional adrenaline rush!) would be contrary to reality. As for me, I am OK with my climbing mediocrity and have been for many years. I wish you the best in your own progression as a climber, hopefully it will bring peace and contentment. Like you said, many of us, including you and I, occasionally bite off more than we can chew as climbers. Part of the process. Peace. Mark
		Posted Aug 8, 2006 10:42 pm

nartreb

Is there a rating system for poker players?

Hasn't voted

I suppose the minimum buy-in functions as a warning of the level of competition one should expect, but I can't stop grinning at the idea of two poker players walking away from the table, pockets empty, muttering, "man, we got sandbagged... no way that guy's a 5.7, he's at least a 5.9!"

Posted Aug 8, 2006 9:57 pm


	vapor0278	Re: Is there a rating system for poker players?
	Voted 10/10	as a poker tournament director, i can say that the buy in does not deter the lower skilled players. there are as many "donkeys" (poker terminology for dumb a$$ player) in the WSOP $10,000 buy in as there are in the free league i work for!!! usually its the better players walking away saying "i cant believe he called me with that bad hand and caught a full house on the river" however, the better players prevail more often then not.
		Posted Sep 6, 2006 8:47 pm

SouthRaker

What are the stakes?

Voted 10/10

As both an avid climber (ok, more a scrambler...) and poker player, I really enjoyed this article. One thing I must point out based upon the comments made so far is that poker is NOT the same as gambling. In this light, perhaps poker should replace gambling in the title of this article. Poker IS however, a risk, and so is climbing. The goal in both is the same though: to minimize the risk, make the smartest decisions, and hope for the greatest reward. Unfortunately the ultimate reward in both hobbies relies on an element of luck. A climber can do all the necessary research and plan carefully for their trip, but mother nature ("luck") also plays a role in how enjoyable the trip is. You may get to the base of your intended route and experience bad weather and have to turn back, or your solid hold or protection may turn out to be not so solid resulting in injury or worse. On the other hand the weather could be perfect, the route one of the most enjoyable you've done, and at the end of the day you get rewarded with an amazing sunset and a smile on your face. Poker players, much more obviously, need lady luck on their side too. A player can prepare for thier tournament or ring game by practicing online, reading books by pros, and getting to know their opponents, but in the end that's often not enough. A poker player can do everything right and get thier money in with the best hand only to lose when thier opponent hits a lucky river card.

The main differences between poker and climbing are the stakes involved and the level of risk. Poker players risk thier hard earned cash, while climbers are risking their health and their lives. I can tell you for certain neither group wants to lose thier investment. The biggest difference between the two is the ability to CONTROL the level of risk involved. In texas hold 'em, the best situation you can be in is to have AA against a hand like A 6 off suite. Here your risk of losing the pot is minimized to about 5%. That's the BEST situation you can be in. Climbers, however, have much greater control over thier degree of risk. While a poker player would be ablolutely thrilled at only a 5% chance of losing thier investment, a climber on the other hand..... you get the point.

When it comes down to it, although I love both hobbies very much, I have to give the edge to climbing. (duh....) I like to minimize my risk as much as possible, and still have a great time. When it comes down to it, climbing is the safer option... and more fun!

Posted Aug 8, 2006 11:03 pm


	vapor0278	Re: What are the stakes?
	Voted 10/10	"poker table topper - $40 , chip set - $30 , 12 pack of beer - $12 , deck of cards - $5 , pocket aces - worthless!!!!"
		Posted Sep 6, 2006 8:53 pm

The Chief

Hmmm

Hasn't voted

In the 35 years of doing this Climbing "Stuff", I have never been of the opinion that it entails any "Risk". It is all a Choice to accept the Challenge set before me. Risk for me, encompasses some sort of thought process as to what the outcome may be. In climbing, there is no outcome. Just the moment in time and all that I focus on within that time frame. If I ever included "Risk" into the equation, I would immediately cease this activity. This whole Climbing gig for me, is simply the true Character of my inner being! I don't do it...I simply live it! I risk nothing! Therefore, I am free to accept any and all challenges that the moment in time may bring before me. All to do as I should with all that I am capable of doing. It is all action in behavior and being. No Risk here....just gotta do it with all the inner peace that abides in my soul. If I don't confront this activity with this logic in mind, then I risk my true Character of who and what I truly am. Oh, I need to add that if I ever quit, then I risk failure of my character to myself!

Posted Aug 9, 2006 12:22 am


	vapor0278	Re: Hmmm
	Voted 10/10	i know poker players with the same attitude!! it's a great way to think!
		Posted Sep 6, 2006 8:58 pm

Andy

Very nice!

Voted 10/10

I really liked your comparison of poker players and climbers in term of risk assessment/management (you lost me a bit on the addiction part of the article). I agree that one of the big components of climbing that I really enjoy is risk assessment/management (it's not the only part of climbing but to me it is a significant part). To me there is "risk" in almost every decision involving a climb. For example:

(1) How heavy a jacket do I need to bring? If I take only a thermal top and a light shell I can carry less weight and move faster. However, if the weather truly turns to crap I'll be a hurting unit.

(2) How often do I need to place pro? I could put a piece every move and be totally "safe", or I could run it out and move three times faster. If I place a ton of pro I'll move really slowly - perhaps tiring out on the route or exposing myself to afternoon storms. On the other hand, if I run it out I face the potential of a much longer, more serious fall.

I could go on and on – to me every choice has associated risk. I think weighing the pros and cons of every aspect of a decision is a very important skill for any climber (hell for any person at all – it’s just the consequences in climbing are often very serious than other pursuits).

Anyway, I enjoyed your article and I enjoy the risk management aspect of climbing. Thanks and climb on!

Posted Aug 9, 2006 9:29 pm

vapor0278

excellent artical!!!!!

Voted 10/10

better players, like climbers, spend a lot of time trying to minimalize the risk involved by honing there skills practicing at lower stakes events, like going to the climbing gym. i work for a nationally run points league called "Doyle Brunson Presents Amateur poker league" ( www.apl1.net ). its a free league with no buyins and our national grand prize is a $10,000 seat in the WSOP. i find many types of players, ranging from the complete novice out for a night of fun, to the semi professional seriously trying to hone there skills for the real games. i know 1 guy who goes to college and plays poker. with no "real" job he brings in an average of $2,000 per week. he also loves mountain climbing, HMMM!?!?! i wonder why. there is definately a major similarity between the risk management of poker and climbing. certainly the risk in climbing is much higher then poker. i am guessing that those who disagree, dont understand poker! those who do not acknowledge, assess, and attempt to manage the risk in poker often lose and lose big, i'm sure you all know what happens to those who do the same in climbing!

the addiction factor is very similar. certainly i can attest to the addiction i see in poker players. the rush of winning will bring you back over and over again. but those who deny the addiction factor for climbing are (with the risk of sounding cliche) in denial! even a psychologist can tell you about the endorphins like adrenalin, seretonin, and dopamene that rush through your brain whe you reach the summit or any part of a mountain climb. as with any frequently repeated activity, your system becomes addicted to the particular mixture of endorphins associated with the activity. you can actually become addicted to almost anything, love, sex, gambling, climbing, driving fast, skydiving, drugs, music, certain tv shows, video games, playing solitare, work, even exorcizing (ever heard of runner's high)! everything and anything can be addictive. the more frequent and higher the level of physical or mental excitement, the stronger the addiction. if you doubt this, pay attention the next time you return from a climb. that feeling of wanting to be in the mountains instead of at your job or home in the city, its called withdrawal! not feeling the withdrawal, try not going the next few times you would normally go climbing, stay at home and watch tv instead. that antsy feeling you have with the overwhelming desire to climb your to the top of your entertainment center, they call that cravings!! i can almost guarantee that if you are reading this, your are probably addicted to climbing. does that mean y'all need to go to climb-a-holics annonymous, NO! embrace your addiction and you will better control it. you'll even enjoy it more. understandin the "high" (not elevation) can help you enhance the experience. the only downside to a great addiction like mountain climbing, and the question you have to ask yourself, are you letting it get in the way of your career or family (ofcourse if climbing is your career, then this could be a very boggling question!) or am i putting myself into situations that are beyond my skill level because i cant feel the rush anymore!?!

i do enjoy climbing more then poker, but strangely i can afford poker more then climbing. "last night i played poker with a deck of tarot cards, i got a full house and 4 people died!!!"

chris "vapor" gilbert

Posted Sep 6, 2006 10:15 pm

vapor0278

the funny thing

Voted 10/10

as an avid memebr of the forum on www.APL1.net , the poker league i work for, i have recently noticed some similarities between certain personalities on this site's forum and that one's. here's a partial list of similar characters (no names):

the nit picker : that one guy who always finds something factually wrong with a post even if it has nothing to do with the over all message!

the arguer : the guy who must pick an arguement with everyone and everything on the forum!!!

the 'most posts' guy : he's the one who has to through his 2 cents in on every thread just to get his name out there!

the 'i should be running this site' guy : the one is quick to point out discrepancies and offer his 2 cents on how the admin should handle it.

the grudge man : you know the guy who has it in for a certain member and does their best to negate any post by that person!

im sure you have all noticed these characters on this site, some of them may even be the same person.

Posted Sep 7, 2006 4:28 pm

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