redneck wrote:

Dow Williams wrote:

MikeTX wrote:

redneck wrote:

Dow Williams wrote:the steeper the wall, thus less huddled about to climb it + more experience yields a certain result......... it really is that simple.

I guess you missed the opening post in this thread:

2. High experience level doesn't preclude basic errors

no, no, no. dow's already talked to the editors. he's convinced them to print a recant.

Juvenile debate tactic at best....grow up and attempt to make a point like men for once....I never said experience "precluded" anything....

Hmm, how is my point unclear? Is there anyone here besides Dow who failed to understand the point I was making?

Mountain Impulse wrote:2. High experience level doesn't preclude basic errors

Dow Williams wrote:more experience yields a certain result......... it really is that simple.

Based on what I believe you mean by "a certain result," these two statements appear to be mutually exclusive.

Only one can be correct. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to deduce which one.

As for "juvenile," that's a bit rich coming for the fellow who posted:

Dow Williams wrote:A bit out of your comprehension zone I would imagine, but normally my belayer is the only belayer to be seen or heard from for miles.

Actually they are not mutually exclusive. It is perfectly reasonable to say that a high experience level reduces the incidence of basic errors, but does not preclude them.

MikeTX wrote:a couple of weeks ago i actually observed someone drop a climber because the rope ran out of their belay device. the climber was being lowered from a toprope.

I'm still trying to figure out how they began a toprope climb if both ends didn't reach the ground a few minutes later, upon lowering.

As the climber ascended, did the belayer take a stroll back 50 feet or something?

Buz Groshong wrote:Actually they are not mutually exclusive. It is perfectly reasonable to say that a high experience level reduces the incidence of basic errors, but does not preclude them.

Which is exactly what Dow was saying. It seemed pretty clear to me.

Day Hiker wrote:

MikeTX wrote:a couple of weeks ago i actually observed someone drop a climber because the rope ran out of their belay device. the climber was being lowered from a toprope.

I'm still trying to figure out how they began a toprope climb if both ends didn't reach the ground a few minutes later, upon lowering.

As the climber ascended, did the belayer take a stroll back 50 feet or something?

DH, if I have not got that out of him yet, I don't see how you are going to. I know this, anyone who thinks tying knots into their belayers end rope at a sport crag is going to somehow give them or the belayer some sort of misplaced sense of security (in other words, they can screw off now).....well, I would rather not stick around to watch.

MikeTX wrote:

Dow Williams wrote:

Day Hiker wrote:

MikeTX wrote:a couple of weeks ago i actually observed someone drop a climber because the rope ran out of their belay device. the climber was being lowered from a toprope.

I'm still trying to figure out how they began a toprope climb if both ends didn't reach the ground a few minutes later, upon lowering.

As the climber ascended, did the belayer take a stroll back 50 feet or something?

DH, if I have not got that out of him yet, I don't see how you are going to.

you never asked. the climber led the pitch and then set it up for top rope. instead of rapping down she asked to be lowered.

and that's okay you wouldn't want to be around. quite okay with me. really.

I will have to say, that is just about the dumbest thing I have ever heard happen at a crag (and I have heard some great shit).....so she tied a figure 8 into the middle of the rope, clipped into it and asked to be lowered? I think you are telling a story dude.

Dow Williams wrote:

MikeTX wrote:you never asked. the climber led the pitch and then set it up for top rope. instead of rapping down she asked to be lowered.

and that's okay you wouldn't want to be around. quite okay with me. really.

I will have to say, that is just about the dumbest thing I have ever heard happen at a crag (and I have heard some great shit).....so she tied a figure 8 into the middle of the rope, clipped into it and asked to be lowered? I think you are telling a story dude.

I don't think he means that she tied into the middle. I think the anchor was slightly higher than half the length of the rope, but that of course would not be obvious until she threaded the rope through the anchor and got lowered back down (uh, unless the belayer checked the center mark when she was at the top). Sorry if I screwed that up, Mike.

Day Hiker wrote:

Dow Williams wrote:

MikeTX wrote:you never asked. the climber led the pitch and then set it up for top rope. instead of rapping down she asked to be lowered.

and that's okay you wouldn't want to be around. quite okay with me. really.

I will have to say, that is just about the dumbest thing I have ever heard happen at a crag (and I have heard some great shit).....so she tied a figure 8 into the middle of the rope, clipped into it and asked to be lowered? I think you are telling a story dude.

I don't think he means that she tied into the middle. I think the anchor was slightly higher than half the length of the rope, but that of course would not be obvious until she threaded the rope through the anchor and got lowered back down (uh, unless the belayer checked the center mark when she was at the top). Sorry if I screwed that up, Mike.

Climbed a 30m+ sport climb with a 60m rope then? and the knots are going to help out how?

Bob Sihler wrote:

Buz Groshong wrote:Actually they are not mutually exclusive. It is perfectly reasonable to say that a high experience level reduces the incidence of basic errors, but does not preclude them.

Which is exactly what Dow was saying. It seemed pretty clear to me.

Actually, it's not exactly what he was saying, but most likely what he meant. Seemed pretty clear to me also.

The bottom line there Texas Mike is now you admit being part of the climbing party. It is critical that you all not chat away with the belayer and rather help him/her keep focus on the leader in this case. Somebody should have been paying attention to the rope, it would have been best if in fact it was the belayer, but obviously he was not up to it that day, so it would have been a comfort to your lady friend if you were. Don't take your leader for granted.