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A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby Kahuna » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:47 pm

TimB wrote:That is one of the places I have been practicing anchor building as well as taking some climbing lessons from the local community college's climbing instructor, who happens to be AMGA certified.



Can you please elaborate on what you are learning as far as properly constructing an anchor that includes the intricate use of a "cordelette".

Thanks Tim.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby TimB » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:20 pm

A5RP wrote:
TimB wrote:That is one of the places I have been practicing anchor building as well as taking some climbing lessons from the local community college's climbing instructor, who happens to be AMGA certified.



Can you please elaborate on what you are learning as far as properly constructing an anchor that includes the intricate use of a "cordelette".

Thanks Tim.


We have just gone over the basics as far as using the cordelette in conjunction with placing protection(thus far with nuts, cams), learning about the optimal angles between the legs of the cordelette(which you touched on earlier, Rick). I should note that thus far, at least, we have used 3 points of protection for our anchors. Also touched on the best sort of knots for the master point,etc.
I have been reading Luebben's book on climbing anchors with great interest, also.
I have to note that I have not yet climbed or rappelled from anchors that I constructed unsupervised; that is, without my instructor being present to make sure everything is safe.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby Vitaliy M. » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:12 pm

I think you can use a variety of set ups for anchors. There are situations where you would use more/less pieces. When I am climbing alpine routes I usually use a 120cm nylon sling in a sliding x set up with 2 bomber pieces, or 3 if not all of them are bomber. If pieces are not too bomber I work with what I have. For cragging, if pro is available I use 3 good pieces for anchor and equalize it with a cordolette. cordolettes are good on walls (since you can have two master points-for slipping yourself and for hauling) and cragging trips where your follower is bellow you and routes are usually in line. Sliding x is great on routes that see some traversing etc.
I am not a pro however and not claim that any of these options are better than what other people said. I think it always depends on situation and what you have. I have not brought a cordolette on an alpine climb in a long time.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby TimB » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:56 pm

Vitaliy M. wrote:I think you can use a variety of set ups for anchors. There are situations where you would use more/less pieces. When I am climbing alpine routes I usually use a 120cm nylon sling in a sliding x set up with 2 bomber pieces, or 3 if not all of them are bomber. If pieces are not too bomber I work with what I have. For cragging, if pro is available I use 3 good pieces for anchor and equalize it with a cordolette. cordolettes are good on walls (since you can have two master points-for slipping yourself and for hauling) and cragging trips where your follower is bellow you and routes are usually in line. Sliding x is great on routes that see some traversing etc.
I am not a pro however and not claim that any of these options are better than what other people said. I think it always depends on situation and what you have. I have not brought a cordolette on an alpine climb in a long time.


Vitaliy,
I have done a bit with the sliding X/sling type setup as well. I have to admit that I am enjoying learning about the anchors/protection aspect of climbing. 8)
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby Kahuna » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:24 pm

TimB wrote: I have to admit that I am enjoying learning about the anchors/protection aspect of climbing.


You will enjoy it even more when you start taking some whippers on em. Do em right so you can return to take some more.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby Vitaliy M. » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:08 pm

People shouldn't be taking whippers on their anchors. Jesus piece is a must, no matter how easy climbing may seem.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby Kahuna » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:49 pm

Vitaliy M. wrote:People shouldn't be taking whippers on their anchors. Jesus piece is a must, no matter how easy climbing may seem.


Well let's see now. Someone that is belaying you when taking them whippers, will hopefully be attached to the conglameration of a cordelette anchor thing we are talking about here. Whether Directly or Indirectly...RIght?

Right.


Damn! Almost forgot. One will in fact be taking them whippers on their cordelette built anchor if pushing the limits of solo-aiding A4 and above sicko lines. Oh yes they will. Many times as a matter of fact. Primary reason you better get it right the first time and every time. Trust me.

But you haven't gotten to that aspect of the climbing game yet. Fact is very few decide to venture into that realm of this game called climbing.

So, you are excused grasshopper.



Carry on....
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby asmrz » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:04 am

In which case one is not taking falls on the anchors, but on one's running protection, which better be good or one will test the anchors severely, which would not be good.

Now that everyone understands this awesome double talk, let me just point out. Learning how to place climbing anchors is best done in controlled situation (if you are new to climbing) and have someone test your set up severly and over and over. Have someone with you who knows good anchor from a bad one and have them explain to you what works and what does not. Books go only so far, rest is you practicing about a foot or two off the deck until you are pretty sure you know what you are doing...Classes if you don't have experienced friend, would be very helpful. The specific gear, preffered gear, absolutely must and must not gear, that's all BS.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby Vitaliy M. » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:22 am

Damn! Almost forgot. One will in fact be taking them whippers on their cordelette built anchor if pushing the limits of solo-aiding A4 and above sicko lines.


Dude, this is a beginner's anchor question. OP will not be doing any A4 nailing any time soon. Doesn't need your chest beating. I don't understand why every thread where someone asks a question regarding technical climbing has to be turned into the comparison of the cock. There are many different situations and many ways to skin the cat. Although the belayer will be tied into the anchor, my point was that he should not be catching falls ON the anchor without any intermediate pro in place, that's it. At least when you do not do badass A4 aid

PS: Love the link. Tomaz, Walter and THE CHIEF!
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby Kahuna » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:37 am

Tisk tisk tisk, missing the Point grasshopper, as usual. But at least you are indeed consistent. Hee Hee Hee.....
Image






Knowledge and deep experience in utilizing the cordelette in building any anchor system, regardless the discipline, is mandatory.


Missing any link in the procedure of doing so,will indeed lead to ones demise. Guaranteed!



Alois, when one is soloing on aid, the anchor is the direct belay, always. That was the point as well. But.....


Oh, may I add that using a "Direct Belay" off the anchor, the fall force of the Second, it is is on the anchor as well. Again, if the anchor is not built correctly, off you all will go.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby MoapaPk » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:43 am

When are cordelettes more useful than say, 15mm tubular webbing? I can understand the preference if you are threading small metal holes, tying friction knots on ropes, or in some other application where the stiffness of a rope is desired.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby Kahuna » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:47 am

It is critical that the cordelette anchor be built correctly when utilizing the "Direct Belay" when bringing up the Second. It indeed takes the direct force of any Second's fall.
Image
Image


Correct Alois?

That too was part of the whipper point. But......
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby TimB » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:53 am

A5RP wrote:
TimB wrote: I have to admit that I am enjoying learning about the anchors/protection aspect of climbing.


You will enjoy it even more when you start taking some whippers on em.


I can't even imagine(now, at least) what that must feel like! :shock: :shock:
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby asmrz » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:32 am

Rick and all

I have never used cordelette in my life and never will. Now how do you like that?

The issue for the new people here is not that this piece of gear or that one, is the only piece, or the only important gear, don't use it and you die...

The issue is that there are many ways to build SAFE ANCHOR. You have your way, I have mine which does not generally look like yours. I'm not wrong, nor are you. You and I know that.

The new guys here don't. They will not be on A4 today, tomorrow or maybe never. What they need to be tought is basics. So basic anchor build is the topic.

If you are new, find experienced friend and have them critique your set up ad noseum. Or take a class, but not just any class, find a guide who will teach you, not preach to you. You need to set up anchors yourself over and over. If the guide insists on telling you, showing you, talking about it, but not letting you do it, walk away...Anchor is one of the few extremely important issues you need to know, not from books or chats, from personal experience.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby Kahuna » Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:17 am

So Alois,

"Noob" issue aside.

I am now curious to know how do you, Alois, incorporate a "Direct Belay" on multi-pitch routes with a Second that is of less ability than you and will indeed be having difficulties with the moves and will invariably be falling on several occasions? Regardless of discipline A4, 5.6, Class4 WI5, M10 etc.

BTW: A Solid "Basic" Anchor is a solid Anchor that should be applied in all instances, regardless grade or discipline. That my friend, is and has been my point.
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