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A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby Kahuna » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:22 pm

Interesting how all these numbers are thrown out there.

Direct or Indirect Belays play a factor as well.

Next deal, apply it... Haul and jug on em or better yet, take a screamer or two on it (with a Direct Belay) and see if them numbers work in reality.


Remember this, numbers mean nothing if the coordelette is not tied correctly, Power Point applied incorrectly or if your pro is not placed accordingly and correctly. The entire system needs to be 100% correct or failure will occur. And you do not want to find out what happens when the system fails.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby TimB » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:04 pm

A5RP wrote: The entire system needs to be 100% correct or failure will occur. And you do not want to find out what happens when the system fails.


Yeah, I know. That's why I want to learn as much about this stuff as possible, especially before I start using my own anchors. I have no great desire to become a grease spot at the foot of a cliff someplace.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby kylenicolls » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:22 am

Ok, thanks, mattyj.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby Kahuna » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:45 pm

Another option which I find less bulky:

Either a 120 or 240cm long 26mm DMM Nylon Sling rated at 30kn. I prefer the shorter 120cm as in most if not all cases, I can use it on all Sport/Pre-Anchored routes (as is the case that is found on all established Big Walls and local long routes) as well as most 3 Point Trad Anchored routes.
Image





I have found that the standard 20'/240cm (9 or so feet looped length) foot Coord's are just too long and necessitate longer draw in order to achieve the PP and stow much more bulkier on my harness.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby AlexeyD » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:04 pm

I use about 20 feet of BlueWater's 6-mm accessory cord. With a 8.4 kN rating, it's a bit stronger than PMI's cord of the same diameter, yet still much less bulky than the 7-mil, which I find to be a reasonable compromise.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby Wastral » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:01 pm

Reality here:

If you ever get a 3 piece anchor where all 3 pieces can be attached with a "cluster F-O-lette" then its a miracle. In practice one can generally get 2 pieces close enough together to make a shallow angle. 3? I think I have managed this exactly once in my life. At which point from falling on pro experience I already knew that the two I had in were plenty good in singular by themselves and the 3rd piece was a waste of time and therefore never use a cord-o-lette and just use sliding x. Now sometimes I place 3rd piece adjacent say 3 feet away to hang junk on, but certainly not to use a cord-o-lette.

Cord-o-lettes get used on ice pro anchors. Its why I carry exactly 1. For setting up an anchor on ice. Though even there one is kidding yourself if one thinks they can place 3 screws/abalakov anchors close enough where they won't effect each other when say one fails and ALSO creating a shallow angle so one is not overloading your cord-o-lette by making large angles. IE "american Death triangle."

PS. Hate carrying cord-o-lettes and generally just leave them home unless I know I think snow/ice is in store for me. I do carry 70m of 6mm as a pull down rope and if I really want cord I will cut it off this. My current "pull down" rope is all of about 55m due to cutting the end off for repel anchors as I didn't carry enough. =)

PPS. Upthread someone said that larger diameter prussics work better! WRONG. It is the opposite. The prussic cord needs to be SMALLER. Of course to compensate all one has to do is use more wraps, so its not a deal breaker, just requires more time.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby Kahuna » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:13 pm

Wastral wrote:Reality here:

If you ever get a 3 piece anchor where all 3 pieces can be attached with a "cluster F-O-lette" then its a miracle. In practice one can generally get 2 pieces close enough together to make a shallow angle. 3? I think I have managed this exactly once in my life.


Now that is hilarious.


Been getting it done each and every time and have done so for over 4 decades now. Whether on a Grade VI WALL, local Trad Crag or on Isolated Ice/Alpine routes world wide.

Gotta know how to think outta the modern day box. Individual runner/draw extensions my friend. Perfectly legal and does not compromise the anchor package.

That is how it is done
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby Wastral » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:16 pm

Sure you can add extra line, now the anchor point is at your feet... and when they do fall you get pulled down with them. Brilliant!

There is no need for 3 unless you are climbing on shitty rock, in which case the 3rd is nothing but psychological pro.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby Kahuna » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:33 pm

Wastral wrote:Sure you can add extra line, now the anchor point is at your feet... and when they do fall you get pulled down with them. Brilliant!

There is no need for 3 unless you are climbing on shitty rock, in which case the 3rd is nothing but psychological pro.


It is apparent you have not done any Grade VI Walls that require multiple anchors/PP's for hauling, ledges, belay points etc. The avg PP will have upwards of 200-400 lbs static loads on em.

As far as the down to your feet, why? The whole premise of the proper cordelette set up is equalization amongst the three pieces of pro to avoid that from happening.

Perfect example of a proper cordelette 3 point set up with a good PP angle 3 pieces of Pro:

Image

And with applied sling/runner/draw extensions applied:
Image
Image

Got tons more examples....
Last edited by Kahuna on Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby Wastral » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:55 pm

2pts shallow angle, low forces. 3 far spread pts = big angle = high forces = bad belay and weaker than the 2pts shallow angle. Thus it gets back to the anchor at your feet. For 3 pts to equalize and keep low angles and therefore low forces, must have longer runner to keep a low angle of pull, thus it ends up down at your feet, or how most people do it, they make large angles and accordingly very high stresses and they may as well not even have that 3rd piece. Not only did it take more time to set up, but it is also weaker than the 2 piece setup if one keeps the cord-o-lette short and high so when the guy below falls the fall doesn't pull you the belayer off the ledge and now are dangling trying to tie your partner off and extricate yourself. Unless you belay through the anchor, I do that sometimes, which once again can't be done safely when its at your knees/feet.

PS. Your first picture is 2 piece equalized. Not exactly a three piece equalization. Look at those monstorous angles man. Due to those 45 degree angles you would have a stronger anchor by using only 2 with near 0 angle. You just graphically made my case for me.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby Kahuna » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:02 pm

Wastral wrote:
PS. Your first picture is 2 piece equalized. Not exactly a three piece equalization...


Negative! You better look again. There is a three point slider PP there. Expand the photo. I have ALWAYS used a min of three points when on a Wall. And do the same in all cordelette applications regardless of type route.

Look at the third photo I just added for the extension process to create a shallow angled anchor point.


All three photos indicate a proper within range angle to create the PP with a min of 3 pieces of Pro.


Here are two more examples of 3 point extension application with marginal gear placements:
Image
Image
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby Vitaliy M. » Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:10 am

Either wastral is a troll or an accident waiting to happen. One always uses a 3 piece anchor. On walls in situations you may want more if you are working with own gear and not 3 bomber bolts.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby brenta » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:22 pm

Wastral wrote:Due to those 45 degree angles you would have a stronger anchor by using only 2 with near 0 angle.

Not quite. Assuming perfect equalization (I know, it's a big assumption) a three-point anchor exerts less force on each point than a vertically aligned two-point anchor when the angle between the two outer legs is less than 120 degrees. Yes, that's right: for less than 120 degrees, the three-point anchor puts less stress on each point than a two-point anchor with an angle close to 0, and of course it has more redundancy.

The analysis of pre-equalized anchors is a bit harder, and the angle at which you get cross-over is smaller, but still close to 90 degrees. (The exact angle depends on several details including the relative lengths of the legs and the stretch of the sling/cordelette/rope.)
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby mfox79 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:28 pm

TimB, I see you live in Twin Falls. A good place to buil anchors on the bouldering wall at Derkies lake. there are many cracks to practice on. Thats the place I learned to place gear.
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Re: A couple of cordelette questions from a NOOB.

Postby TimB » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:40 pm

mfox79 wrote:TimB, I see you live in Twin Falls. A good place to buil anchors on the bouldering wall at Derkies lake. there are many cracks to practice on. Thats the place I learned to place gear.


That is one of the places I have been practicing anchor building as well as taking some climbing lessons from the local community college's climbing instructor, who happens to be AMGA certified.

Life doesn't suck.
:grin:
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