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Bernese Oberland mountains' names

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Bernese Oberland mountains' names

Postby Diego Sahagún » Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:13 pm

Does Finsteraarhorn mean Dark-haired Peak :?:

Does Lauteraarhorn mean Peak With An Only Hair :?:

Finster: Dark
Haar: Hair
Horn: Peak
Lauter: Only
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Re: Bernese Oberland mountains' names

Postby cb294 » Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:03 pm

Diego Sahagún wrote:Does Finsteraarhorn mean Dark-haired Peak :?:

Does Lauteraarhorn mean Peak With An Only Hair :?:

Finster: Dark
Haar: Hair
Horn: Peak
Lauter: Only


Hi Diego,

not really.

"Finster" indeed means "dark", but "Aar" refers to a stream / creek / river, "horn" means horn.

"Finsteraarhorn" therefore would translate as "horn-shaped mountain above the dark river / at the end of the dark river valley".

"Lauter" could mean "louder" (very unlikely) or "lots" (not "only"!) or "pure/clear". Hard to say which of these -if any- applies, but again it most likely refers to the river ("Lauteraare", or something like that). My guess would be "mountain above the clear stream".

Guess it goes to show that the people naming these mountains were most interested in what was at the bottom rather than the top. There are many other examples for this in the Alps. Just of the top of my head, the Grosse Möseler in the Zillertal Alps is named so because of the swampy alpine meadows beneath it. Similarly, Alpspitze is called so because it is above the only alpine meadows ("Alp") suitable for keeping cows on that side of Garmisch.

Cheers,

Christian
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Postby Moni » Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:21 pm

It's just as feasible that Lauteraar means the loud creek - as in one with many rapids and waterfalls to create the sound.

Matterhorn means the horn above the meadows - from times much warmer than now when there were meadows at the base and not glaciers - it used to be a passage to drive livestock across the pass.
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Postby Buz Groshong » Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:14 pm

Moni wrote:It's just as feasible that Lauteraar means the loud creek - as in one with many rapids and waterfalls to create the sound.

Matterhorn means the horn above the meadows - from times much warmer than now when there were meadows at the base and not glaciers - it used to be a passage to drive livestock across the pass.


I don't buy that idea that there were meadows where there are now glaciers (not in recorded history, that is). There are meadows beneath the Matterhorn now though, they just aren't right at the base of it.
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Postby gert » Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:24 pm

Buz Groshong wrote:
Moni wrote:It's just as feasible that Lauteraar means the loud creek - as in one with many rapids and waterfalls to create the sound.

Matterhorn means the horn above the meadows - from times much warmer than now when there were meadows at the base and not glaciers - it used to be a passage to drive livestock across the pass.


I don't buy that idea that there were meadows where there are now glaciers (not in recorded history, that is). There are meadows beneath the Matterhorn now though, they just aren't right at the base of it.


matter = matte and they mean the meadows around the village of Zermatt (..matt) - glaciars were far bigger in the past! - it is the "horn above the matte" :-)
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Postby Fred Spicker » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:53 pm

From my research -

Sir Arnold Lunn includes an extensive discussion of the names for this mountain in Matterhorn Centenary, 1965. He relies heavily on the work Dr. Jules Guex a Swiss who is an expert on Alpine nomenclature.

Matterhorn, the Swiss name, is derived from the Swiss word matte, meaning "meadow". It means "mountain or peak of the meadows". It is interesting to note that that according to Lund: "The climate of Zermatt has changed radically since the middle of the eighteenth century, when the alpine pastures of Zermatt and Valtounanche met on the Théodule and a bridle path led from Zermatt to Breuil." Thus at the time that the name evolved, the mountain rose above meadows extending to its base rather than the snow and ice that is present today.

Monte Cervino (Italian) and Mont Cervin (French) is, according to Dr. Guex, in fact a misspelling of the original local name of Servin. The misspelling came into being and common usage through the writings of Horace Bénédict de Saussure (first climber of Mont Blanc) who crossed Théodule Pass from Brueil to Zermatt and wrote of the trip in his book Voyages dans les Alpes. He misspelled the name there and the new spelling stuck.

Servin is derived from a word meaning "wood" and would indicate forested slopes. The name originally belonged to the pass and was later applied to the mountain. This would seem to indicate that at one time the Théodule Pass was forested.
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Postby Diego Sahagún » Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:39 am

Moni, perhaps you should start a new topic about Wallis mountains' names. Cervino/Matterhorn is there.

Thanks Christian, I'm improving my Swiss German.. :wink:
Last edited by Diego Sahagún on Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby cb294 » Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:43 am

Moni wrote:It's just as feasible that Lauteraar means the loud creek - as in one with many rapids and waterfalls to create the sound.


Hi Moni,

I still think that´s unlikely, not only because for a "loud creek" you would expect something like "Lautaar" or "Lauteaar" (Aar is gramatically female). "Lauteraar" seems to be either male or comparative, neither of which fits.

Anyway, just a few km further north is the Lauterbrunnen valley. "Loud well/spring" makes much less sense than "Clear spring".

Christian
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Postby Moni » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:12 pm

cb294 wrote:
Moni wrote:It's just as feasible that Lauteraar means the loud creek - as in one with many rapids and waterfalls to create the sound.


Hi Moni,

I still think that´s unlikely, not only because for a "loud creek" you would expect something like "Lautaar" or "Lauteaar" (Aar is gramatically female). "Lauteraar" seems to be either male or comparative, neither of which fits.

Anyway, just a few km further north is the Lauterbrunnen valley. "Loud well/spring" makes much less sense than "Clear spring".

Christian


Seems reasonable.
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Postby Moni » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:28 pm

Buz Groshong wrote:
Moni wrote:It's just as feasible that Lauteraar means the loud creek - as in one with many rapids and waterfalls to create the sound.

Matterhorn means the horn above the meadows - from times much warmer than now when there were meadows at the base and not glaciers - it used to be a passage to drive livestock across the pass.


I don't buy that idea that there were meadows where there are now glaciers (not in recorded history, that is). There are meadows beneath the Matterhorn now though, they just aren't right at the base of it.


An article published in the Swiss Alpine Journal in 2004 (Die Alpen Ohne Gletscher by Christian Slüchter and Ueli Jörin, Institute of Geology, University of Bern, Switzerland) discussed that the receding glaciers in Switzerland are uncovering 300 year old tree remnants (the trees were 300 years old, not the remains themselves.) The authors studied old moraine lines, peat samples and other evidence that determined 10 periods before 1950 which lasted anywhere from 200 to 1800 years (totaling 5400 years of the last 10000 years, when our last ice age ended) that were far warmer than today. The basic conclusion was that glaciers below 3000 meters elevation are more an anomaly than a regular feature. What we consider "normal" today are leftovers of the "mini ice age" that occurred during the middle 1800's (and which stimulated emigration to the US) and again in the 1920's. The last warming was from 500AD to 800AD.

If you read German, I am more than happy to send you the article.
Last edited by Moni on Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Buz Groshong » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:28 pm

Fred Spicker wrote:From my research -

Sir Arnold Lunn includes an extensive discussion of the names for this mountain in Matterhorn Centenary, 1965. He relies heavily on the work Dr. Jules Guex a Swiss who is an expert on Alpine nomenclature.

Matterhorn, the Swiss name, is derived from the Swiss word matte, meaning "meadow". It means "mountain or peak of the meadows". It is interesting to note that that according to Lund: "The climate of Zermatt has changed radically since the middle of the eighteenth century, when the alpine pastures of Zermatt and Valtounanche met on the Théodule and a bridle path led from Zermatt to Breuil." Thus at the time that the name evolved, the mountain rose above meadows extending to its base rather than the snow and ice that is present today.

Monte Cervino (Italian) and Mont Cervin (French) is, according to Dr. Guex, in fact a misspelling of the original local name of Servin. The misspelling came into being and common usage through the writings of Horace Bénédict de Saussure (first climber of Mont Blanc) who crossed Théodule Pass from Brueil to Zermatt and wrote of the trip in his book Voyages dans les Alpes. He misspelled the name there and the new spelling stuck.

Servin is derived from a word meaning "wood" and would indicate forested slopes. The name originally belonged to the pass and was later applied to the mountain. This would seem to indicate that at one time the Théodule Pass was forested.


Looks like someone wants to start a global warming pissing match! :wink:
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Re: Bernese Oberland mountains' names

Postby Ejnar Fjerdingstad » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:46 pm

cb294 wrote:
Diego Sahagún wrote:Does Finsteraarhorn mean Dark-haired Peak :?:

Does Lauteraarhorn mean Peak With An Only Hair :?:

Finster: Dark
Haar: Hair
Horn: Peak
Lauter: Only


Hi Diego,

not really.

"Finster" indeed means "dark", but "Aar" refers to a stream / creek / river, "horn" means horn.

"Finsteraarhorn" therefore would translate as "horn-shaped mountain above the dark river / at the end of the dark river valley".

"Lauter" could mean "louder" (very unlikely) or "lots" (not "only"!) or "pure/clear". Hard to say which of these -if any- applies, but again it most likely refers to the river ("Lauteraare", or something like that). My guess would be "mountain above the clear stream".

Guess it goes to show that the people naming these mountains were most interested in what was at the bottom rather than the top. There are many other examples for this in the Alps. Just of the top of my head, the Grosse Möseler in the Zillertal Alps is named so because of the swampy alpine meadows beneath it. Similarly, Alpspitze is called so because it is above the only alpine meadows ("Alp") suitable for keeping cows on that side of Garmisch.

Cheers,

Christian


Stuff and nonsense! :D

"Aar" is "eagle" in several German dialects, thus Finsteraarhorn = "Dark eagle horn", where 'horn' denotes a pointed peak.
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Postby Ejnar Fjerdingstad » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:48 pm

Moni wrote:
Buz Groshong wrote:
Moni wrote:It's just as feasible that Lauteraar means the loud creek - as in one with many rapids and waterfalls to create the sound.

Matterhorn means the horn above the meadows - from times much warmer than now when there were meadows at the base and not glaciers - it used to be a passage to drive livestock across the pass.


I don't buy that idea that there were meadows where there are now glaciers (not in recorded history, that is). There are meadows beneath the Matterhorn now though, they just aren't right at the base of it.


An article published in the Swiss Alpine Journal in 2004 (Die Alpen Ohne Gletscher by Christian Slüchter and Ueli Jörin, Institute of Geology, University of Bern, Switzerland) discussed that the receding glaciers in Switzerland are uncovering 300 year old tree remnants (the trees were 300 years old, not the remains themselves.) The authors studied old moraine lines, peat samples and other evidence that determined 10 periods before 1950 which lasted anywhere from 200 to 1800 years (totaling 5400 years of the last 10000 years, when our last ice age ended) that were far warmer than today. The basic conclusion was that glaciers below 3000 meters elevation are more an anomaly than a regular feature. What we consider "normal" today are leftovers of the "mini ice age" that occurred during the middle 1800's (and which stimulated emigration to the US) and again in the 1920's. The last warming was from 500AD to 800AD.


Tell that to Bruno Tibet and other AGW'ers! :lol:
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Re: Bernese Oberland mountains' names

Postby Ejnar Fjerdingstad » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:51 pm

Diego Sahagún wrote:Does Finsteraarhorn mean Dark-haired Peak :?:

Does Lauteraarhorn mean Peak With An Only Hair :?:

Finster: Dark
Haar: Hair
Horn: Peak
Lauter: Only


There is a great difference between "Aar" and "Haar", the 'h' is pronounced in German!
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Postby Diego Sahagún » Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:37 pm

Ejnar, there is no need of :!: BTW, we enjoyed our journey to The Alps (France, Italy and Switzerland) without paying any guide. You had said that we should have been at least three roped
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