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Best way to redirect a belay using a sliding X

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Best way to redirect a belay using a sliding X

Postby absinthe52 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:07 pm

I want to use a sliding X since I am without a cordellet for right now. As there is no Top-Shelf for the redirect, whats the best method to set this up so I can belay off my harness? Also, I'm usuing a B-52. If I want a direct belay, can I just clip another locker in to the belay anchor? Thanks

Oh yes, question refers to a two bolt achor system, not trad. Instead of messing with the anchor system for a redirect, can I just clip a quickdraw into either bolt and use that?
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Postby scooter12ga » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:14 pm

If I'm properly understanding your question, short answer = Yes you can redirect off of quick draw(s) at the anchor...but

Some hypothetical questions to keep you thinking and creative:

If you're redirecting off an X, where and how are you attached to the anchor? Static slings, the climbing rope, both?

Where is your sliding X attached to the anchor? At the hangers, end of the chains, middle of the chains? If you adjust its position, does it make the redirect easier to accomplish?

If your follower falls, and you're belaying from the harness, which way are you going to be pulled?
How does a follower fall affect the integrity of your anchor?
Does it create the potential for you to create dynamic load on a static attachment?

Finally, if you're redirecting the belay using quickdraws, where is the focus of the fall load in relation to the anchor? When you answer this one, you may question why you're using a sliding X at all. Plus if you're using a B52, which claims to autoblock, why would you bother redirecting in order to belay from the harness?

Have fun! Don't kill yo'self.
Last edited by scooter12ga on Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby scooter12ga » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:32 pm

Realized I misunderstood the questions, made edits, go back and read again for more clarity.
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Re: Best way to redirect a belay using a sliding X

Postby Guyzo » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:19 pm

absinthe52 wrote:I want to use a sliding X since I am without a cordellet for right now. As there is no Top-Shelf for the redirect, whats the best method to set this up so I can belay off my harness? Also, I'm usuing a B-52. If I want a direct belay, can I just clip another locker in to the belay anchor? Thanks

Oh yes, question refers to a two bolt achor system, not trad. Instead of messing with the anchor system for a redirect, can I just clip a quickdraw into either bolt and use that?



Why a sliding X or a Cordelite on a two bolt anchor?

Are you afraid it might fail?

It will not, I assure you.

It is always best to belay off of your harness. Always.

My own tried and true method.

Get to bolts

Clip into one of the bolts with your own "Personal Anchor System" .... ie. A sling.

Clip into the OTHER bolt with the rope, I prefer using a clove hitch for this one.

Next, Place a QD on one of the bolts. The main point to look for is this: What side will the follower be coming up from? If the right side, put it on the right side. If left put it on the left side.

Next, put the rope through what ever belay deal you use. (Personally I prefer using the old time Hip Belay for this cause I can reel in huge hand-fulls of cord cause the guys I climb with run up pitches quickly when on TR)

Then clip it through the QD so it runs down to the next climber.

Now if the climber on TR falls, you get pulled into your anchor and not pulled around.

Pretty F-ng simple, NO?

I have watched some take about 15 min setting up a belay at bolts using all manner of equilizing deals. :?

Using the method I described above takes about 15 seconds.

GK :wink:
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Postby ksolem » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:59 pm

Guyzo knows what he's talking about, although I don't recall seeing him using the hip belay very often...

I would just add to the conversation that this type of method is safe if the route you are climbing is equipped with modern bolts such as those used on sport climbs, and that these bolts are the right type for the rock they are placed in. In other words: bomber anchors.

Some old routes might have less reliable anchors, such as two old 1/4" buttonhead bolts. At an anchor like this I would attach myself to the bolts with an equalizing system and belay directly off my harness with no redirect, while making the best of whatever stance the rock offers.

I remember once coming to a scary old anchor at a decent stance. 10' above was a nice crack. Since I had plenty of rope I continued up to the crack, got a good nut to back up the anchor, and came back down to the stance.

Keep your eyes open, and never settle for second best...
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Postby fatdad » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:56 pm

I was going to follow up on Guyzo's comment about tying into a two bolt anchor separately. At first, that method seems like you wouldn't be equalizing the anchors, but using a PAS and clove hitch, you could adjust the tension on both of those pretty well and equalize that way. Other than that, I belay at a two or three bolt anchor pretty much the same way as he describes.

I do agree with Kris though that if the bolt are old or mank, you should use a different method. It's distressing when those kind hearted folks who replace old bolts describe how easily they come out.
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Postby absinthe52 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:23 pm

Thanks for all the advice homeys
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Re: Best way to redirect a belay using a sliding X

Postby Alpinisto » Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:34 am

Guyzo wrote:It is always best to belay off of your harness. Always.


Agree with Guyzo, except this part ^^^.

IMHO, "always" is not a word that should be used when discussing climbing, especially when it comes to things like anchor building, where there are a ton of variables.
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Re: Best way to redirect a belay using a sliding X

Postby Brad Marshall » Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:01 am

Alpinisto wrote:
Guyzo wrote:It is always best to belay off of your harness. Always.


Agree with Guyzo, except this part ^^^.

IMHO, "always" is not a word that should be used when discussing climbing, especially when it comes to things like anchor building, where there are a ton of variables.


I agree there can be a ton of variables in anchor-building but I read that as "always best" not "always must". Sometimes you don't need the best belay, like when two seconds come up an alpine route together. It's nice to have a reversino on the anchor.
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Postby ksolem » Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:57 pm

As an illustration of older vs. modern bolts, this picture shows some 1/4" and 5/16" bolts which were placed on a route on the route Saucer Full of Secrets, Dome Rock, in 1979.

Image

The two on the left are original 1/4". The three buttonheads are 5/16" x 1 1/4", and could be replacements from the 1990's. All of these bolts pulled out from their holes easily, like nails out of old wood.

The bottom bolt is a modern "Fixe" bolt, a bomber anchor in granite. Softer rock like sandstone needs longer bolts or perhaps even glue ins.

Although climbers are gradually replacing old bolts at many areas it is wise to examine what you are clipping into.
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Re: Best way to redirect a belay using a sliding X

Postby Guyzo » Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:19 pm

squishy wrote:
Guyzo wrote:
It is always best to belay off of your harness. Always.


I always have and recently tried it from the anchor with a rev3 belay device. When it is appropriate to switch to belaying off the anchor? When have you done so?



I say never off the anchor. Never never never ever....... but do just what you wish.

The knot you use to tie in with has a lot to do with the "give" in the whole system. This knot is the key.

Belay right off the anchor if you must, I see no need to hook to it to bring up two climbers at the same time. I just use two directional draws.

climb on.
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Re: Best way to redirect a belay using a sliding X

Postby fatdad » Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:46 pm

Guyzo wrote:It is always best to belay off of your harness. Always.


I'm generally with you. However, there's an interesting parallel thread where several advocate just that.

Edit: oops, here's the link: http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=45430
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