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Changes to Voting System

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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby Bob Burd » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:49 am

ZeeJay wrote:How about if likes are anonymous but dislikes aren't?


I agree - that sounds like a fine idea. People are still free to leave comments on objects if they want to give kudos openly. It seems like it would cut down on the tit-for-tat voting clubs that some dislike.
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby lcarreau » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:59 am

Bob Burd wrote:
ZeeJay wrote:How about if likes are anonymous but dislikes aren't?


I agree - that sounds like a fine idea. People are still free to leave comments on objects if they want to give kudos openly. It seems like it would cut down on the tit-for-tat voting clubs that some dislike.


I fell prey to "tit-for-tat" voting two years ago. It's kinda like watching the boob tube, except the popcorn is free; and it's so easy to become addicted.

Please consider me AGAINST "tit-for-tat voting ," please ..

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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby mrchad9 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:55 am

I still think it would be preferable to be able to help a page score, but not as much as a full like or a 10/10 if the situation warranted. When a new member puts up a marginal page I'm not going to give it a full like, and won't dislike. But I'd like to acknowledge via their score that it was better than nothing if an honest effort.
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby Jimbopo » Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:59 am

lcarreau wrote:
Bob Burd wrote:
ZeeJay wrote:How about if likes are anonymous but dislikes aren't?


I agree - that sounds like a fine idea. People are still free to leave comments on objects if they want to give kudos openly. It seems like it would cut down on the tit-for-tat voting clubs that some dislike.


I fell prey to "tit-for-tat" voting two years ago. It's kinda like watching the boob tube, except the popcorn is free; and it's so easy to become addicted.

Please consider me AGAINST "tit-for-tat voting ," please ..

Image


7 Psychopaths Eye For An Eye

I couldn't help it. The flavor of the forums demanded it.
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby Scott » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:03 pm

I still think it would be preferable to be able to help a page score, but not as much as a full like or a 10/10 if the situation warranted. When a new member puts up a marginal page I'm not going to give it a full like, and won't dislike. But I'd like to acknowledge via their score that it was better than nothing if an honest effort.


I was thinking the same thing. Something for a mediocre page, as in an "OK, but needs improvement". People might shy away from giving such pages an "unlike", especially if everyone else already clicked "like". I've voted a lot of 5's on such pages and hopefully no one is offended when they automatically turn to dislikes.

Example:

http://www.summitpost.org/ellison-mountain/698979
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby mrchad9 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:27 pm

I hope whoever is deciding this consider the following...

if describing this in terms of Likes and Dislikes, also give the ability to give half a Like, or half a Dislike. Maybe even go to thirds or quarters but not beyond that. A Dislike could erase a like in the score calculation, but have no more weight than that (unless there were more total Dislikes). Under this scenarios no matter what fraction you liked a page it would still help their score, and nothing to be upset about that.

As far as how to count existing votes, it is a trivial matter as 96% of them are 10s and I'd bet most of the rest are 1s. There aren't enough other votes for it to be worth debating.
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby Montana Matt » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:23 pm

Thanks for all of the great feedback everyone!
Bob Burd wrote:One fallout is that everyone's points are going to be lowered marginally due to lost votes. I figured if everyone knew this was the case globally, no one would care.

Not only are power points going to change dramatically, but so will page/image scores.
Matt Lemke wrote:Likes/Dislikes should then be anonomous...seeing who voted on your pages is absurd

Bob Burd wrote:I agree. Dislikes could be encouraged, but not not required to add a reason. Anonymous voting was a big problem in the past, as pointed out.

Votes will not be anonymous. It caused major problems in the past and opens the doors to rampant abuse of the system.
Dow Williams wrote:Rather I recommend a complete new visitor to the site have as much weight as I do in so much as to whether a photo, route beta, trip report, etc is interesting/exceptional.

Giving a newly registered user full voting power will also open the voting system to abuse, which was also a problem in the past. Perhaps new users should have equal voting rights, but they should have to be active on the site for at least X days? Maybe it won't be an issue now? I suppose we could try allowing full, equal voting rights to everyone and then address any problems as they arise.
Scott wrote:
I still think it would be preferable to be able to help a page score, but not as much as a full like or a 10/10 if the situation warranted. When a new member puts up a marginal page I'm not going to give it a full like, and won't dislike. But I'd like to acknowledge via their score that it was better than nothing if an honest effort.

I was thinking the same thing. Something for a mediocre page, as in an "OK, but needs improvement". People might shy away from giving such pages an "unlike", especially if everyone else already clicked "like". I've voted a lot of 5's on such pages and hopefully no one is offended when they automatically turn to dislikes.

Initially, I was also thinking about something along these lines. I thought it would be helpful for people to have a way to say: "I looked at the page and it's OK. Not great and not bad." Translating into "It's acceptable, but it could use some work." But I think that's what comments are for. And currently no one really votes that way. 99% of the votes are either a 1 or a 10. I went looking for an example of a 3-option voting system and couldn't find one, but there are plenty of 2-option systems. It just makes more sense to do a like/dislike system if that's what more people want over a 5 option or a 10 option system like we currently have.
mrchad9 wrote:if describing this in terms of Likes and Dislikes, also give the ability to give half a Like, or half a Dislike. Maybe even go to thirds or quarters but not beyond that. A Dislike could erase a like in the score calculation, but have no more weight than that (unless there were more total Dislikes). Under this scenarios no matter what fraction you liked a page it would still help their score, and nothing to be upset about that.

That's really not much different than the current SP voting system. I think people fixate too much on the score number and how it changes when they vote. The current system was devised with the intent that people would vote like this:
Code: Select all
1   The Worst. Ever.
2   Horrible
3   Pretty Bad
4   Below Average
5   Average
6   Above Average
7   Pretty Good
8   Excellent
9   Wow! Amazing
10  The Best. Ever.

But everyone (99%) votes 1 or 10. Seems pretty obvious to me that the right direction to go is the like/dislike system.
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby mrchad9 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:39 pm

But Matt- look at the current system and compare it to what I proposed.

Currently if three people vote 10, a page might have a score of 87 or something. If the fouth votes a 9 then this LOWERS the score to a 75 or something dramatic like that. If they vote a 10 then it goes from 87 to 87.3 or so.

What Scott and I propose is quite different. If the fourth person votes 'half a like' then the score goes from 87 to 87.15, instead of 87.3 for a full like... but it doesn't ever DECREASE the score the way a 9 currently does when everyone else voted a 10... regardless of how many full Likes the page had.

If a system were implemented like this, the effect would be very different than the current system. Sure some would still only use the full Like, heck most next even vote... but a lot more than 4% would vote in another way.

Think about it. Granted... there are a lot more examples of the two option system in place than this proposal... and based on that I can see using two... but this is definitely not the same as the current system at all.
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby Montana Matt » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:44 pm

mrchad9 wrote:What Scott and I propose is quite different. If the fourth person votes 'half a like' then the score goes from 87 to 87.15, instead of 87.3 for a full like... but it doesn't ever DECREASE the score the way a 9 currently does when everyone else voted a 10... regardless of how many full Likes the page had.

People are fixating too much on the decrease of the score. When voting honestly on a scale from 1 to 10 as outlined above, people shouldn't worry about what happens to the score and just believe that things will get sorted out as they should. The score is just a complex mathematical calculation. If you can provide me with an equation to calculate the page score based on what you and Scott are proposing ('half a like' taking the score from 87 to 87.15 and a full like taking it to 87.3), I'd be happy to consider it. But I can't think of a good way to implement such a system.
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby Bubba Suess » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:50 pm

I think the 10 point system currently in place is good in theory. The problem is the calculating method that ends up dropping the score if anything less than 10 is voted. This is what has pushed the 10 or 1/nothing i.e. the like/dislike paradigm. Even a 9 is going to lower the score, despite that seeming like a pretty good vote. Now, I know nothing of what has gone into the calculating but it seems that people would be inclined vote 6's or 7's if they helped the score marginally but did not lower it.

If the desire is there to simplify the voting then a like/dislike system could work if a third option was 'abstain' or something like that. Obviously that may not be the best name for it but it works for the discussion. Voting 'abstain' would not change the score but communicate to the page builder that someone has the opinion the page is coming along but needs to be improved. One could even install a mechanism that would notify someone to review their 'abstain' vote after so much time has elapsed. If the page has not improved then one can dislike it. If it has improved, one can like it.

By the way, does all of these changes being discussed mean the launch of a SPv3 or just majoring remodeling on the current SPv2?
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby MarkDidier » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:01 pm

Going with a Like/Dislike system makes the most sense to me. Going with any extra categories just seems to complicate things...and no system is going to make everyone happy.

If one of the goals of voting is to improve page quality, under the current system (or Like/Dislike), giving a low vote (or Dislike) is not the best way to accomplish that goal. Page quality improves via communication with the submitter. I would recommend that for any Dislike, the voter is forced to submit a comment (or PM). Giving a submitter constuctive criticism and recommendations is what will improve page quality. If the submitter does nothing, then the issue could easily be escalated to the elves for action from there. This could easily be accomplished by having the Comment box pop up with a Dislike.

And as for page scores, I take no stock in them and personally do not think they are necessary. The value of the beta submitted lies in mind of the user!
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby Montana Matt » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:09 pm

Bubba Suess wrote:I think the 10 point system currently in place is good in theory. The problem is the calculating method that ends up dropping the score if anything less than 10 is voted.

If all of the votes in the system weren't 10, that would not be the case.
Bubba Suess wrote:This is what has pushed the 10 or 1/nothing i.e. the like/dislike paradigm. Even a 9 is going to lower the score, despite that seeming like a pretty good vote. Now, I know nothing of what has gone into the calculating but it seems that people would be inclined vote 6's or 7's if they helped the score marginally but did not lower it.

Right, I understand that. But the problem is still the following: Someone votes a 10 on a page (that's all anyone votes now). The score is calculated based on that 10. If someone else comes along and votes a 7, how could that NOT lower the score? Again, if someone can provide me with a mathematical equation for a system where you count a 10 vote and calculate a total score based on it, then you count a 7 vote and calculate a total score based on the 7 and the 10, and that total score isn't lower than it was when there was only a 10, I'd be happy to try implementing and testing it.
Bubba Suess wrote:By the way, does all of these changes being discussed mean the launch of a SPv3 or just majoring remodeling on the current SPv2?

Yeah, it kind of does, I suppose. Changing the voting system is a major change and could be enough to warrant SPv3, or at least SPv2.1 :) It will have all sorts of ramifications to many things on the site. Making this change will probably take a week or so to implement once a decision is made on what exactly to implement. Moving to a new server and upgrading the code/software is a huge change too. I spent the last 3 days going through and optimizing all of the code and database on the new server. It's significantly faster now. And with a new look for the site, which I hope to see implement on the new server as well, it certainly could be considered SPv3.
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby awilsondc » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:27 pm

Montana Matt wrote:...if someone can provide me with a mathematical equation for a system where you count a 10 vote and calculate a total score based on it, then you count a 7 vote and calculate a total score based on the 7 and the 10, and that total score isn't lower than it was when there was only a 10, I'd be happy to try implementing and testing it.


I think this is what needs to happen. Either we go with the like/dislike system, or someone comes up with a new algorithm for the 0-10 system. The reason you don't get more 5-9 votes is that even though the person is trying to say hey, your work is pretty good but not perfect, the page score gets lowered. Lowering a page score is seen as a negative thing even though you were trying to say something positive. The new algorithm should improve a score if if the vote is 6-10 (by varying degrees) and lower the score if the vote is 1-5 (by varying degrees). Hopefully someone who is good at math can come up with such an algorithm. It gives me a headache just thinking about it. :P
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby Bruno » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:39 pm

My two cents: A non-anonymous "like / dislike" vote sounds like a good idea, but we will most probably end up having over 99% of votes being "like", so the whole purpose of having a "dislike" button is lost. Almost nobody is voting less than 10/10 now, do you really think more people would be ready to vote "dislike"? If the votes are kept anonymous (especially the negative ones), this would certainly trigger some manipulations and revenge votes as it occured in the past.

A slightly modified version of the "Like / Dislike" button could be to rephrase it as a "Good page / To be improved" button.

1) "Good page" votes would increase the page score. I would support the proposal of having the "Good page" votes undisclosed in order to reduce vote begging, but this is not essential (the comments do already often serve that purpose of inducing reciprocal voting).

2) "To be improved" votes would lower the page score. These votes should not be anonymous.

Personally, I would almost never vote "Dislike", but would not hesitate to vote "To be improved" on many pages as the wording is much more constructive. There are for example a lot of pages that are reasonably good, but which need a serious update. A "To be improved" button would better serve the purpose.

It is good to keep different voting weights according to the member power, or at least keep a certain threshold as now. This prevents people creating avatars to vote on their own contributions.
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby AlbertoRampini » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:47 pm

My point of view about:

1 - IF THE SCORE IS NOT IMPORTANT AS SOMEONE SAYS, WHY DOES THAT ONE EXIST ON SP AND WHY DO SP MEMBERS WISH TO INCREASE IT ?
PERSONALLY I VOTE ONLY WHEN I LIKE, WHEN I DON'T LIKE I RATHER PREFER TO GIVE NO VOTES, IT SEEMS TO ME INCORRECT TOWARDS THE PERSON WHO HAS DONE THE WORK; I PREFER EVENTUALLY TO CONTACT THE AUTHOR, IF THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG IN THE PAGE.

2 A CHANGE TOWARDS THE LIKE/DISLIKE SYSTEM VOTE INSTEAD OF 1 TO 10 SYSTEM IS WELCOME, BUT I THINK IT'D BE BETTER THE DISLIKE VOTE DOESN'T LOW THE SCORE OF THE PAGE. ONLY THE LIKE/VOTE CAN MODIFY THE SCORE, INCREASING IT. IN THIS WAY WE CAN EXPRESS OUR VALUATION ABOUT THE PAGE WITHOUT DAMAGING THE AUTHOR AND SIGNALING HIM THE PAGE HAS SOMETHING TO BE IMPROVED

3 ANONIMOUS DISLIKE VOTES MUST BE AVOIDED BECAUSE OF THIS WAY IS INCREASING THE REVENGE-ACTIONS.
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