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Changes to Voting System

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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby yatsek » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:43 pm

Montana Matt wrote:I mean, I don't know that we can expect the system (or any system, for that matter) to work perfectly when you have only a handful of people voting on a page. And unfortunately popularity will drive the number of votes, not quality. I'm not sure that there is a way around this...

Well, what about showing the "average grade" next to the "page score" then?
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby mrchad9 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:47 pm

Montana Matt wrote:That may be possible with a tweak to the equation? You think Chad?

A tweak of the equation wouldn't accomplish that Matt. What it would likely take is to add on a second equation, either as a replacement to the existing one or possibly as a add on to the existing one. I too would like it if scores weren't centered around 70%, and will think it over, but I really do not think it is possible to have that and keep the current requirement that a 7 and above always increases the score. I think the current process of having a 7 always increase the score has more benefits than the cons that Scott is complaining about.

My only hesitation with showing 'average grade' is that it then causes people to revert back to using 10s or nothing at all. Right now I feel free to vote 5, 6, or 7 without thinking someone will complain about my vote. If average grade is displayed, I don't know if folks will feel the same way. I certainly wouldn't want it to be actually used, otherwise we might as well go back to the old scoring system.

Scott should also take note that a page with a score of just 80% gives 49% more power points than one with 70%. So in addtion to the score, look at the impact it has.

I understand what you are saying perfectly well Scott. I just don't think a possible algorithm exists that meets all your requirements that doesn't result in a host of other problems.

As I said, if you find one I am happy to support it. Until then...............
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby Montana Matt » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:07 pm

mrchad9 wrote:I think the current process of having a 7 always increase the score has more benefits than the cons that Scott is complaining about.

I agree. In a sense, it doesn't really matter how closely grouped the scores of pages are so long as they are separated enough to discern quality based on the score. I think they are at this point.
mrchad9 wrote:My only hesitation with showing 'average grade' is that it then causes people to revert back to using 10s or nothing at all.

Agreed.
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby yatsek » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:23 pm

mrchad9 wrote:My only hesitation with showing 'average grade' is that it then causes people to revert back to using 10s or nothing at all. Right now I feel free to vote 5, 6, or 7 without thinking someone will complain about my vote. If average grade is displayed, I don't know if folks will feel the same way. I certainly wouldn't want it to be actually used, otherwise we might as well go back to the old scoring system.

I'm afraid I'm not convinced. First, most of the active voters who vote on the most popular pages (while not bothering to vote on the less popular ones) have not stopped using 10s only. Second, those who "vote responsibly" will not stop casting 1-9s as well as they just value fairness/have a thick skin. Third, I suppose quite a few once active contributors exploring the less popular areas have practically given up frustrated by their elaborate pages getting so little appreciation. And this is IMO one of our biggest losses.
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby Scott » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:56 pm

In a sense, it doesn't really matter how closely grouped the scores of pages are so long as they are separated enough to discern quality based on the score.


Agree.

I think they are at this point.


Disagree. Especially not for route pages.

I understand what you are saying perfectly well Scott.


The only thing that needs to be said is that there is too much emphasis on the number of votes, and not enough on the grade of votes. Nothing else to say and no more complaints. I can delete the previous ones if you wish.

PS, would you mind posting or PM'ing me the current algorithm? I'd like to look at it and see what I can do with it (no complaints and you don't have to accept any proposals).

Also, I'm confused by the mentioning of the 10/10 thing. I though this was going away. Were plans changed?
Last edited by Scott on Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby mrchad9 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:57 pm

It's on page 7 of this thread.

Here: blocked-out-of-voting-thread-t64062-90.html#p904253
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby Scott » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:58 pm

OK, thanks. :wink:

PS, I have to go, but will look at it tomorrow.
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby mrchad9 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:03 pm

No rush Scott. Any changes can be retroactive. I'd prefer we think about things for a few weeks and implement one update to the algorithm when needed, rather than recommending Matt change it every month. I have a couple of small tweaks (that have no downsides) I want to do mayself based on some of our previous discussions, but there is no rush to do so.
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby Bob Sihler » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:52 pm

I'm not going to complain about the new system when I was unhappy with the old one. Let's give it some time and see how it works.

Down the road, though, I'd really like to see consideration of addressing the imbalance of scores between popular and obscure pages. I do find it very unfair that the Whitneys of the site will have very high scores and the unknown gems won't. It also gives guests and newer members a sense that the latter pages are lower in quality, which might also impact site traffic and use of such pages.

This is a suggestion, not a complaint. :wink:
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby mrchad9 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:06 pm

Yes I hope folks think about that. Does the new system solve more problems than it created? It is better than the old one?

The idea was not to make a radical change, but to improve things without messing anything up. So far I don't think anything was messed up.
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby yatsek » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:16 pm

mrchad9 wrote:Yes I hope folks think about that. Does the new system solve more problems than it created? It is better than the old one?

The idea was not to make a radical change, but to improve things without messing anything up. So far I don't think anything was messed up.

Nothing has been messed up and the system has been greatly improved. As Scott put it, "the only thing that needs to be said is that there is too much emphasis on the number of votes, and not enough on the grade of votes." So some of the folks have started thinking of the way to improve the formula for the page score and one is suggesting something like (what's the score today + average grade) : 2
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby mrchad9 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:39 pm

But at the same time, there is a complaint that not enough folks are diverging from using 10s right? Doesn't the suggestion you have further discourage folks from moving away from 10s?

We need to get a new norm before we can realiably avoid old habits right?
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby Josh Lewis » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:14 am

Once again I'll say it "I love the new voting system". I am very motivated to vote 7's, 8's or whatever. I encourage everyone to vote honestly on my content. A friend of mine gave me a 9/10! :o He usually votes all 10's. This means that some folks are actually considering the new system. :wink: (I'm already seeing some 8's thrown around). If you think my page deserves a 6/10, you better vote your 6/10. 8)
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby yatsek » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:18 am

mrchad9 wrote:But at the same time, there is a complaint that not enough folks are diverging from using 10s right? Doesn't the suggestion you have further discourage folks from moving away from 10s?

We need to get a new norm before we can realiably avoid old habits right?

I find it a bit annoying but I've never complained about that. I'm complaining about the fact that excellent pages by “non-photo people”/about less popular things get similar scores to those fair/good pages do. I believe the score resulting from the number of votes should be balanced by the average rating.

Some people will always stick to that "bad old habit" since they just prefer like/dislike which translates to 10/nothing.
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Re: Changes to Voting System

Postby yatsek » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:26 am

On the other hand, I do agree that a change to the formula for the page score like what I suggested above may affect what seems to be one of the best advantages of the new system, i.e. the fact that 6-9s raise the page score. So perhaps it'd be better to simply display the “average grade” next to the “page score” (the average grade would have no impact on the page score or power points).
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