Climbing Instructor Dies on Mount Rainier

Deleted User · by **Deleted User** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:40 am

jrowe025 wrote:but once someone speaks the truth about the situation everyone gets butt hurt.

It ain't about getting "butt hurt" buddy.

Just a reaction to some folks' apparent need to spray.

Analysis is one thing. Most of the comments on these boards provide nothing even approaching careful analysis. Instead...just one more poster beating their chest.

Not sure why I even bother.

by **kozman18** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:25 pm

jschrock wrote:Analysis is one thing. Most of the comments on these boards provide nothing even approaching careful analysis. Instead...just one more poster beating their chest.

Not sure why I even bother.

This is a recurring theme – climber dies, posters immediately jump at the chance to show how much they know about climbing while “analyzing” the situation and pointing out the mistakes made. All in a post that starts with the report of the climber’s death -- always a sad event regardless of the situation, an event that deserves some degree of restraint.

Have a little respect for the fallen. You want to show how much you know about climbing, or what mistakes were made in a given situation? Wait a few days until the facts are known (I didn’t see any initial mention of whether these climbers were using, or not using, pro, nor did I see any description of the survivors’ level of expertise (but, Lee was very experienced and an instructor, and snow conditions were optimal)). Then, if you think there are lessons to be learned, start a separate thread about safe rope team practices.

There is no advantage to immediate armchair analysis, and a lot of disadvantages – as some of these posts illustrate.

by **Bombchaser** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:32 pm

Jumping to conclusions after an accident like this is not a good thing, but carefull discussion is good. It helps to keep others safer and point out possible things that went wrong. If the accident was caused by some sort of stupid action on the climbers part it should be pointed out and talked about. This accident appears to just be a feak accident that can occur while climbing. It is a dangerous sport in which the hazards can only be mitigated. It is a little different situation than some asshole climbing up in tennis shoes on technical terrain!

On another note, it is sort of a climbing rule that your not supposed to climb solo. I wonder how many people have died solo versus roped in a team? It would seem the odds are about the same either way? I do most of everything solo. It seems being roped together on very steep terrain only increases the chance of more people falling if one person goes down, unless that person can give early warning and others can get self arrested quickly.

by **MoapaPk** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:48 pm

In snow-covered crevasse terrain, going solo is probably not a good idea.

by **simonov** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:14 pm

Bombchaser wrote:Jumping to conclusions after an accident like this is not a good thing.

I'm glad you never do anything like that. Except, um, here:

Bombchaser wrote:Here is another example of people that should not be on big mountains. Climbing / hiking way above their level of experience. This is happening a lot lately. People head out without the proper gear, proper experience, and not checking or having real working knowledge of weather conditions. There is the attitude of just bring a cell phone and if things get tough then I will just call for help.

And here:

Bombchaser wrote:This is an example of a true accident on a large mountain. The climbers were trained, prepared, experienced. It's a dangerous sport and sometimes shit just happens. Sad news.

by **dskoon** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:16 pm

redneck wrote:
Bombchaser wrote:Jumping to conclusions after an accident like this is not a good thing.

I'm glad you never do anything like that. Except, um, here:

Bombchaser wrote:Here is another example of people that should not be on big mountains. Climbing / hiking way above their level of experience. This is happening a lot lately. People head out without the proper gear, proper experience, and not checking or having real working knowledge of weather conditions. There is the attitude of just bring a cell phone and if things get tough then I will just call for help.

And here:

Bombchaser wrote:This is an example of a true accident on a large mountain. The climbers were trained, prepared, experienced. It's a dangerous sport and sometimes shit just happens. Sad news.

Lol!

by **mrchad9** » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:07 am

Bombchaser wrote:It seems being roped together on very steep terrain only increases the chance of more people falling if one person goes down, unless that person can give early warning and others can get self arrested quickly.

This party was not roped up due to being on steep terrain. They were roped due to being on glaciated terrain. The purpose of roping up in such a situation is not to add protection if someone slips, but in the event of someone falling into a crevasse. In such a scenario you are going to be much safer roped vs going solo, but all members of the party should first be experienced in self arrest. One person cannot hold the weight of 3 others in most fall situations.

IMHO perfectly reasonable to travel in such conditions without placing gear, if the roping up is for protection from crevasse hazards. But if roping up simply due to the steepness of the terrain, gear should be placed.

by **mvs** » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:23 am

mrchad9 wrote:
Bombchaser wrote:It seems being roped together on very steep terrain only increases the chance of more people falling if one person goes down, unless that person can give early warning and others can get self arrested quickly.

This party was not roped up due to being on steep terrain. They were roped due to being on glaciated terrain. The purpose of roping up in such a situation is not to add protection if someone slips, but in the event of someone falling into a crevasse. In such a scenario you are going to be much safer roped vs going solo, but all members of the party should first be experienced in self arrest. One person cannot hold the weight of 3 others in most fall situations.

IMHO perfectly reasonable to travel in such conditions without placing gear, if the roping up is for protection from crevasse hazards. But if roping up simply due to the steepness of the terrain, gear should be placed.

+1

by **Dow Williams** » Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:48 pm

"the last person on the rope tripped and fell. The men were swept off their feet, couldn't stop their fall and plummeted about 100 feet into a 35-foot deep crevasse"

Anyway you cut it, most of us in the biz consider a 4 person team a cluster waiting to happen. We prefer 2's or 3's. On a 2 person team, you both have to be experienced on self extraction (mainly jugging a rope in free air efficiently), the majority of folks on Rainier simply would not have those skills.

If one person's fall was enough to take the other three men with him, they had ventured onto a steep section of ice/snow. Unfortunately, many on Rainer would also not be fully versed in self arrest. One of two things either occurred. The experienced gentleman had little to no assistance on a low angled slope to stop the 100' slide into the crevasse where he died on impact probably of a whiplash type of effect.

Or they were on substantially steep terrain where three men could not arrest the fourth's fall. Pro should have been placed in that scenario.

The bottom line is that there is a false sense of security to being tied into three other men on steep snow and ice. This should not replace the rigors of training if one is going to go unguided on glacier terrain. I learned self arrest in Alaska under Brian Okonek's supervision. I swear he made me hit the dirt (snow and ice in this case) like some sort of army Sargent....until self arrest became second nature. This training came before I climbed Rainier. I fear this sort of training is bypassed by the tourist aspect of climbing in the Cascades.

by **mrchad9** » Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:14 pm

Agree with everything you said there Dow except I'm not sure about the part about a 4 person team being a cluster. It is actually quite common and I've never found it to be an issue when with experienced people. Even guided parties often have 4 on a rope (seen them on Shasta, Rainier, and Baker). I personally believe the optimal might be 3, but haven't seen anything to support that most are against 4 person teams.

My assumption has been that the slope was not excessively steep, and that the former occured- that the experienced fellow had little to no assistance (but only the two who survived and weren't the first guy who fell know for sure). There are plenty of routes on Rainier, including this one, that are not steep enough that protection would be required for those experienced in self-arrest.

One other point- since you highlighted for us that it was the last person on the rope, the most experienced people obviously should be on the ends. This person should have been able to self arrest and stop their own fall (as I stated, the being roped on this terrain, if no protection is placed, should not be to protect someone who tripped, but someone who fell in a crevasse). If he'd fallen in a crevasse no doubt he wouldn't have been able to pull three people below him in with him. And when decending, I would place the most experienced person in the back anyways. Appears he may have been up front.

Deleted User · by **Deleted User** » Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:46 pm

Doesn't the length between climbers have a part? If these guys had lots of slack in the rope or were too many guys on a too short a rope, then the self arrest theory of saving your rope-mates becomes muddled... plus these guys were tired, inexperienced, hungry/cold, etc, etc, etc... yadda, yadda, yadda

I can't believe im responding to this... we have better threads out there... I think

RIP man...

by **fatdad** » Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:58 pm

People are always going to Monday morning quarterback this stuff, particular when the parties appeared to be not super experienced. It's always going to be a judgment call depending on conditions, how well or poor the climbers are doing, etc.

The one time I did Rainer, it was late in the year and it was really hard snow and the crevasses were exposed. In fact, we had actually intended on a route other than the DC but according to the rangers the crevasses weren't passable that late in the season. At the top of the Cleaver, my partner and I decided that if one of us slipped it would be impossible for either one of us to self arrest or stop a fall, so we just unroped. It was kind of heads up at times but given that neither of us slipped, it seemed the right decision in retrospect. But if things had gone different we might have been the subject of a thread like this.

Deleted User · by **Deleted User** » Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:06 pm

fatdad wrote:It was kind of heads up at times but given that neither of us slipped, it seemed the right decision in retrospect. But if things had gone different we might have been the subject of a thread like this.

Well said...

by **Day Hiker** » Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:41 pm

fatdad wrote:if one of us slipped it would be impossible for either one of us to self arrest or stop a fall

Isn't that when you're supposed to place protection?

(Just based on what others have posted.)

by **adventurer** » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:58 pm

I'm always at a loss to understand why some people find it necessary to bash "tourists" or "inexperienced climbers" especially in light of the fact that:

1) Hundreds of Mountain Guides make a living teaching, training, and guiding inexperienced climbers. Without these tourists, there would be no guiding industry.

2) Sponsored climbers are sponsored by companies to facilitate the sale of their products & services. Without tourists and wannabes, there would be no market for their products and therefore no need for those companies to sponsor anyone.

3) Climbing literature is full of examples where experienced, professional climbers died in the mountains as a result of either bad luck or their own mistakes.

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