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Could I do Aconcagua?

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Re: Could I do Aconcagua?

Postby Vitaliy M. » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:26 pm

This reply by 'ibelieveindevil' is one of the worst advice posts I have ever seen on Summitpost.


Pretty much sums up what I thought.


I know it has been used before (even on Denali), but rarely. Please show us one expedition to a 7000 meter peak that uses supplemental oxygen for anything but emergency use.


+1

Guy obviously does not know what he is talking about.
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Re: Could I do Aconcagua?

Postby kevin trieu » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:57 pm

Don't they make chewable diamox in different flavors now? Kind of like gummy bears. I usually bring a pack of 30 and snack on them along the trail. I simply will not go over 2,784m without diamox.
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Re: Could I do Aconcagua?

Postby Damien Gildea » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:00 am

ibelieveindevil wrote:... because a simple hike can lead to death at kili because too many people think that they can acclimatise like you.


If you read or understood my posts you would realise that I take MORE time to acclimatise than most people and certainly more time than most commercial trips to things like Kilimanjaro. It is people wanting to rush things that require Diamox or get into trouble on easy ascents like Kili. These are the reasons drugs have become popular - choice, not physiology.
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Re: Could I do Aconcagua?

Postby Damien Gildea » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:05 am

ibelieveindevil wrote:... am i not clear or am i telling fake things, or simply some people are just too lazy to think.


Yes, you are telling fake things.

Yes, I agree. You are too lazy to think. Or read, or learn, or reconsider, or do, or...
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Re: Could I do Aconcagua?

Postby ibelieveindevil » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:19 am

Damien Gildea wrote:
ibelieveindevil wrote:... am i not clear or am i telling fake things, or simply some people are just too lazy to think.


Yes, you are telling fake things.

Yes, I agree. You are too lazy to think. Or read, or learn, or reconsider, or do, or...


said the person who said that he thinks someone he can do 7000m without oxygen and someone who is struggling with elbrus should do the same because he say so. hmmm
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Re: Could I do Aconcagua?

Postby ibelieveindevil » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:20 am

Scott wrote:
1: diamox for ASL 3000m for tourist traveller is pretty common advice from a doctor. and that was the exact advice i received when i started.


3000m has about the same pressure as a commercial airline cabin. Most people on a commercial flight do not take diamox. You say a basic guide is to use diamox at 3000 meters. This isn't true in any place I've climbed. Did the doctor also recommend it when flying a plane?

When did you start? Who was the doctor? What mountains have you climbed? This information could be useful.

3: 7000m for professionals, definately. for ameteurs, i doubt so


I know it has been used before (even on Denali), but rarely. Please show us one expedition to a 7000 meter peak that uses supplemental oxygen for anything but emergency use.

Here are the two most popular 7000 meter peaks:

http://www.bing.com/search?q=climbing+l ... b008fd6778

http://www.bing.com/search?q=climbing+m ... &FORM=AWRE

Even on all the guided trips that I know of, they don't use supplemental oxygen. Can you show us one expedition, guided or otherwise that commonly uses it for an 7000 meter peak?

(Note: Sometimes it is used for sleeping on peaks like Everest at not that much over 7000 meters, but that's an 8000 meter peak and they don't use it just to climb to 7000 meters).


i dont even need to put a 7000m here. Mount Fuji isnt even 4000m, and tourist do use oxygen on fuji
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Re: Could I do Aconcagua?

Postby Yury » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:02 am

ibelieveindevil wrote:Mount Fuji isnt even 4000m, and tourist do use oxygen on fuji
So what?
Some patients use oxygen even at a sea level.
Does it mean that hikers should use oxygen at a sea level?
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Re: Could I do Aconcagua?

Postby Yury » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:15 am

Damien Gildea wrote:
drManhattan wrote:I don't think I am particularly fit. I just summited Elbrus last week and that felt very hard.


'Very hard' is meaningless without context Mr drManhattan! How old are you? Do you have a history of exercise? Had you done any trekking/walking much before?

How long did your Elbrus expedition allow to do the climb? Most commercial expeditions are too rushed.
How long did your summit day take? Way too many commercial mountain clients suffer too much on summit days, or fail, because they are insufficiently acclimatised to make the summit safely and enjoyably. They only just make it and are too extended and exhausted if anything goes wrong.
Although Damien already explained everything I still want to add my two cents.
1. Elbrus should not be very hard. In case it was hard for you it means that either you spent not enough time acclimatizing or was moving way too fast.
2. Elbrus should be a nice relaxed hike. Once I talked to a guide who told me a story of an expedition of Japanese ladies with average age of 70. They had one to one ratio of guides to clients on that hike and all of them safely reached the summit.
So having a better endurance is good, but it's not really required for Elbrus.
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Re: Could I do Aconcagua?

Postby Scott » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:44 am

1. Elbrus should not be very hard. In case it was hard for you it means that either you spent not enough time acclimatizing or was moving way too fast.


This thread is getting a bit off topic, but as to the above it can be. It can be fairly easy for an acclimatized and in shape climber in good weather, but the weather up there can be brutal, especially in the off season (we were there late September).

When the weather is bad, any of the mountains with "technically easy routes" that are tall and glaciated mountains can be difficult regardless of skill level. This is true of mountains like Elbrus, Blanc, Rainier, Hood, or even Aconcagua, which is one reason those peaks claim so many lives (they also tend to attract a lot of people who either lack experience or underestimate the mountain).

To the original poster, the big killers on Aconcagua are going up too fast (lack of acclimatization), weather, and underestimating the mountain (which can include the former two).

As far as the rest of the conversation goes in this thread, it's probably best to ignore the one person (who shall remain nameless), who is obviously very inexperienced and pretending that he is not.
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Re: Could I do Aconcagua?

Postby radson » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:45 am

Would that be ibeleiveindevil Scott? ;p

Out of idle curiosity, our Malaysian friend did nominate the one mountain where oxygen is regularly used by 'climbers'. Can anyone think of any other non 8000er where oxygen is used? I am drawing a blank.
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Re: Could I do Aconcagua?

Postby ibelieveindevil » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:08 pm

Scott wrote:
1. Elbrus should not be very hard. In case it was hard for you it means that either you spent not enough time acclimatizing or was moving way too fast.


This thread is getting a bit off topic, but as to the above it can be. It can be fairly easy for an acclimatized and in shape climber in good weather, but the weather up there can be brutal, especially in the off season (we were there late September).

When the weather is bad, any of the mountains with "technically easy routes" that are tall and glaciated mountains can be difficult regardless of skill level. This is true of mountains like Elbrus, Blanc, Rainier, Hood, or even Aconcagua, which is one reason those peaks claim so many lives (they also tend to attract a lot of people who either lack experience or underestimate the mountain).

To the original poster, the big killers on Aconcagua are going up too fast (lack of acclimatization), weather, and underestimating the mountain (which can include the former two).

As far as the rest of the conversation goes in this thread, it's probably best to ignore the one person (who shall remain nameless), who is obviously very inexperienced and pretending that he is not.

hmmm, you ask for the traditional medication, i gave it to you. you asked about doctor, i gave it to you. you asked for a mountain name, i gave it to you. and you choose to ignore all of them when you cant say anything else?
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Re: Could I do Aconcagua?

Postby ibelieveindevil » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:19 pm

Yury wrote:
ibelieveindevil wrote:Mount Fuji isnt even 4000m, and tourist do use oxygen on fuji
So what?
Some patients use oxygen even at a sea level.
Does it mean that hikers should use oxygen at a sea level?

Messner climbed all 14 without artificial oxygen, do you mean every hiker should do so as well?
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Re: Could I do Aconcagua?

Postby Scott » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:29 pm

you asked for a mountain name


Wrong; that's not what I asked. Here was the question:

Please show us one expedition to a 7000 meter peak that uses supplemental oxygen for anything but emergency use.

And:

Even on all the guided trips that I know of, they don't use supplemental oxygen. Can you show us one expedition, guided or otherwise that commonly uses it for an 7000 meter peak?

A tourist using oxygen on Mt Fuji is not an expedition, neither is using it at sea level. Further, Everest View Hotel at around 3880 meters also has oxygen available in their rooms. Some ski resorts in Colorado do as well. That is not what is being referred to. People using oxygen on Fuji, in a hospital, at a ski resort, or in a hotel room has nothing to do with Aconcagua or the norms of or "general rules" of mountaineering. Your point is that because someone uses it on Fuji, it is a required above 7000 meters and everyone who disagrees with you is attacked and is somehow claiming that no one should ever use oxygen? The truth is that it is actually extremely rare to use for non emergency use on expeditions (even if it is for a beginner climber on a fully guided expedition), except when climbing 8000 meter peaks and only on 8000 meter peaks is it common or normal to use on an expedition. Emergency use is different. It is used for emergencies on many mountains, including Aconcagua (which should be the topic here). As mentioned, some people have used it to climb even Denali, but it isn't common, the norm, or a general rule.

Messner climbed all 14 without artificial oxygen, do you mean every hiker should do so as well?


No one said that.

The only thing that anyone has disagreed with is that most people use it for a 7000 peak or that it is required. Most people do not. It is actually extremely rare that they do. A few people on Mt Fuji is not the norm.

The other disagreement was that you recommend medications to Here is the thing, people experience different level of effect above 3000m, some need medication to proceed, and that it is a basic guide to use it at 3000 meters.

That is is a basic guide or the norm for 3000 meters is not true, but you can't seem to comprehend this.

No one here on this thread has said that you can't or shouldn't use medications, but you that a climber should never use medications to ascend higher if you aren't feeling well or aren't acclimatized and that they must be cautiously. Medications can help you, but you actually have to be careful using medications for many reasons such as they mask symptoms (one reason that it is officially banned on Aconcagua, but rarely enforced).

No one on this thread has said not to use oxygen (that's a completely different topic). They just said that it was almost never used to climb 7000 meter peaks. No one has said never to use medications. They just said that it wasn't the norm at 3000 meters and that acclimatization is more important and that there were side effects to be aware of. You and only you are providing bad/inaccurate information and trying to twist it into an ethics conversation by trying to claim that others say never to use oxygen or use medications. No one has said that on this thread.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS, be aware that you are treading on thin ice when resorting to name calling, throwing a fit when someone calls you out on something, mucking up threads on the forum, and providing little or no useful information, and that you can be deleted for doing so.

Of course I also believe in second and even third chances. Please use them wisely.

I would never delete someone for simply disagreeing, or for having a different opinion, but if you have no submissions to SP and are just here to name call and muck up threads on the forum, it does get old.
Last edited by Scott on Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:52 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Could I do Aconcagua?

Postby Bob Sihler » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:12 pm

I would never delete someone for simply disagreeing, or for having a different opinion, but if you have no submissions to SP and are just here to name call and muck up threads on the forum, it does get old.


Yes.

But...

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Re: Could I do Aconcagua?

Postby ibelieveindevil » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:01 pm

Scott wrote:
you asked for a mountain name


Wrong; that's not what I asked. Here was the question:

Please show us one expedition to a 7000 meter peak that uses supplemental oxygen for anything but emergency use.

And:

Even on all the guided trips that I know of, they don't use supplemental oxygen. Can you show us one expedition, guided or otherwise that commonly uses it for an 7000 meter peak?

A tourist using oxygen on Mt Fuji is not an expedition, neither is using it at sea level. Further, Everest View Hotel at around 3880 meters also has oxygen available in their rooms. Some ski resorts in Colorado do as well. That is not what is being referred to. People using oxygen on Fuji, in a hospital, at a ski resort, or in a hotel room has nothing to do with Aconcagua or the norms of or "general rules" of mountaineering. Your point is that because someone uses it on Fuji, it is a required above 7000 meters and everyone who disagrees with you is attacked and is somehow claiming that no one should ever use oxygen? The truth is that it is actually extremely rare to use for non emergency use on expeditions (even if it is for a beginner climber on a fully guided expedition), except when climbing 8000 meter peaks and only on 8000 meter peaks is it common or normal to use on an expedition. Emergency use is different. It is used for emergencies on many mountains, including Aconcagua (which should be the topic here). As mentioned, some people have used it to climb even Denali, but it isn't common, the norm, or a general rule.

Messner climbed all 14 without artificial oxygen, do you mean every hiker should do so as well?


No one said that.

The only thing that anyone has disagreed with is that most people use it for a 7000 peak or that it is required. Most people do not. It is actually extremely rare that they do. A few people on Mt Fuji is not the norm.

The other disagreement was that you recommend medications to Here is the thing, people experience different level of effect above 3000m, some need medication to proceed, and that it is a basic guide to use it at 3000 meters.

That is is a basic guide or the norm for 3000 meters is not true, but you can't seem to comprehend this.

No one here on this thread has said that you can't or shouldn't use medications, but you that a climber should never use medications to ascend higher if you aren't feeling well or aren't acclimatized and that they must be cautiously. Medications can help you, but you actually have to be careful using medications for many reasons such as they mask symptoms (one reason that it is officially banned on Aconcagua, but rarely enforced).

No one on this thread has said not to use oxygen (that's a completely different topic). They just said that it was almost never used to climb 7000 meter peaks. No one has said never to use medications. They just said that it wasn't the norm at 3000 meters and that acclimatization is more important and that there were side effects to be aware of. You and only you are providing bad/inaccurate information and trying to twist it into an ethics conversation by trying to claim that others say never to use oxygen or use medications. No one has said that on this thread.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS, be aware that you are treading on thin ice when resorting to name calling, throwing a fit when someone calls you out on something, mucking up threads on the forum, and providing little or no useful information, and that you can be deleted for doing so.

Of course I also believe in second and even third chances. Please use them wisely.

I would never delete someone for simply disagreeing, or for having a different opinion, but if you have no submissions to SP and are just here to name call and muck up threads on the forum, it does get old.

seriously, hmmm, do you have difficulties in understanding? Because you seems to choose to ignore name calling on me simply based on the ground that i dont agree with you. you said you need me to explain things, i explained, you dont agree, doesnt mean i am wrong. it simply means you dont agree. As simple as that. I dont know why you can disagree on me while i cant disagree on you. not to mentioned some of the things you saying is pretty laughable.

I am not sure you can read carefully or not because i repeatedly stressed the fact i never mentioned that acclimatization is not important. In fact i stressed that it is important. The fact i am stressing on is the use of medication helps and it is more important to use it as preventive rather than remedy. I have suffer enough from people who refuse to use medication on commercial trips.

PS: you choose to mention regarding mount fuji and said that it is not a norm. then i wonder what do you call as a norm? Climbing isnt a norm sport in the first place.
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