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Re: Discounting 10/10 Vote Weight

Postby Scott » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:29 pm

To me is it is also much more important that the 'crowded' peaks, those that get a lot of hits, have the best and most accurate information since there are so many people utilizing them.


Yes, Chad, though we agree on much, I think that is an important area where we don’t necessarily do so. To me, having accurate information is equally important on a well know vs. little known peak and in some cases even more important on the lesser known peak.

For example, if someone botches the (hypothetically; the current page on this mountain is great) page on Mount Whitney, there are many other sources to check, verify and use as a resource.

If a description is botched on a page that is only on SP or has very few other sources, there is no other way to check the information until you do the climb (which is why it is important to be accurate).

I could use my own page that I maintain as an example:

http://www.summitpost.org/temple-mountain/613272

While a prominent landmark, (as far as I know) this page is the only detailed source on Temple Mountain that exists. Unfortunately, part of the information was not correct.

Read the summit logs and comments:

http://www.summitpost.org/temple-mounta ... log/613272

http://www.summitpost.org/temple-mounta ... nts/613272

Because SP was the only place to get the information and because there was an error, it resulted in people underestimating the peak (including Matt Lemke and Josh Lewis whom attempted the climb and are posting in these threads).

When the first person posted the error, I just thought his comfort level was different, but more people started making comments (I should have kept all the corrections; I deleted some) and I adjusted the page.

Very recently I learned that the route had changed and a ledge had fallen away; making the climb much more difficult than in years past.

Given no errors were intentional, but I think it does demonstrate the importance of accurate information on pages for lesser known peaks, and especially on ones where there are few or no other sources to check. Of course, if a peak is a walk up on all sides, it doesn’t matter as much, but on peaks with technical or complicated routes, it is very important.

Anyway, my point is that the voting and page scores are really just nice incentives for the people who make the pages.


Yes, that's what it usually comes down to, but as said above, voting (to me) is supposed to provide quality control and to indicate that pages that need work rather than to make someone feel good.

In the end though, I agree voting is of secondary importance.
Last edited by Scott on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discounting 10/10 Vote Weight

Postby mrchad9 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:36 pm

ywardhorner wrote:As someone who uses SP mostly for route information, can I just say that all the preoccupation with voting and page scores seems a little over the top? I've been using this site for years and when I look up a mountain (for information/pics), only one page is available. So it doesn't matter to me what that mountain's score is and I rarely even notice it. I can't (for example) choose between a Shasta page rated 98% versus a different Shasta page rated only 72%. I get the one Shasta page and take the info available and read all the relevant trip reports. Any info available is going to be cross-checked against maps and guidebooks and other sources anyway. I'm usually looking for pics and personal experiences with the route in question.

Anyway, my point is that the voting and page scores are really just nice incentives for the people who make the pages. Anyone who makes a page is going to appreciate some feedback and enjoy knowing their efforts didn't go unnoticed. But to someone simply looking for information about a mountain, the score and the number of votes don't make much difference. So I can't see why micromanaging the votes with ever more complicated algorithmns is really that important? Why not spend the time adding useful features to the site?

Nice post ywardhorner. I tend to agree. Matt is working on some new features now that I think will be nice additions to those we've put in place recently. Hopefully we will see some of them soon!
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Re: Discounting 10/10 Vote Weight

Postby asmrz » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:04 pm

And there are those of us, who will vote 10 because we like something and not vote at all if we don't. Taking away points for voting 10 is fine with me, I don't need any power points after all. Zero is fine with me.

Did we all collectivelly forget what SP is or we thought it would be? An information site for outdoor people? If I want to go somewhere and SP has any info on the place, it is 10 for me. Nothing else much matters.
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Re: Discounting 10/10 Vote Weight

Postby Matt Lemke » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:06 pm

Scott...was there really a ledge that fell away on Temple Mountain??? That is incredible! Makes perfect sense now. Now I am really excited to go back and give it another go this time with the now required additional gear.
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Re: Discounting 10/10 Vote Weight

Postby Luc » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:13 pm

Remove "weight" of voters, remove points based on amount of pics you upload, make voting anonymous, add or squeeze in an extra option:
0 Irrelevant
1 The Worst. Ever.
2 Horrible
3 Pretty Bad
4 Poor
5 Needs Additions
6 Fair
7 Good
8 Great Work
9 Wow! Amazing
10 The Best. Ever.
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Re: Discounting 10/10 Vote Weight

Postby MoapaPk » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:23 pm

Zero often means no one ever voted, maybe because the page didn't have all the geegaws. I've gotten some of the best route information from "zero" pages.
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Re: Discounting 10/10 Vote Weight

Postby surgent » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:55 pm

MoapaPk wrote:Zero often means no one ever voted, maybe because the page didn't have all the geegaws. I've gotten some of the best route information from "zero" pages.


Occasionally I will order the pages by score, lowest to highest, and quite a few 0-score pages (no votes) aren't bad. They may have had a short life on the new submissions list, and just got forgotten.

Just the same, many are one-off pages put up by a very-temporary member, and never got deleted.
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Re: Discounting 10/10 Vote Weight

Postby asmrz » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:00 pm

BTW I think the SP thinkers could try to fix the fact, that mountain and route pages get written by people who never climbed the mountain or that route. If you want to give advantage to anyone, encourage people to write pages about mountains and routes they did and reward them for it. If quality of content is what you are after, that single issue could help SP quite a bit.
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Re: Discounting 10/10 Vote Weight

Postby mrchad9 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:23 pm

Luc wrote:remove points based on amount of pics you upload

This has largely been already done. Most images are worth about 10-20% of what they were previously. This is why most everyone's power points went down when we switched systems.

If someone wants to get more power points by using images it is going to take them a very long time.
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Re: Discounting 10/10 Vote Weight

Postby Bob Sihler » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:52 pm

asmrz wrote:BTW I think the SP thinkers could try to fix the fact, that mountain and route pages get written by people who never climbed the mountain or that route. If you want to give advantage to anyone, encourage people to write pages about mountains and routes they did and reward them for it. If quality of content is what you are after, that single issue could help SP quite a bit.


Strongly agree, especially for routes.
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Re: Discounting 10/10 Vote Weight

Postby MoapaPk » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:33 pm

Part of the problem is that often route/mountain pages were given up for adoption, and taken over by folks who had never done those peaks/routes. The SP authorities were just glad to have someone care enough to volunteer the time for a minimal rework.
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Re: Discounting 10/10 Vote Weight

Postby Bob Sihler » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:37 pm

MoapaPk wrote:Part of the problem is that often route/mountain pages were given up for adoption, and taken over by folks who had never done those peaks/routes. The SP authorities were just glad to have someone care enough to volunteer the time for a minimal rework.


True, but I know of at least one member who is basically a hiker but created several pages for technical routes back in the day.

I don't think we have too many cases nowadays of new route pages made by people who haven't done the routes, but there are a lot from the past.
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Re: Discounting 10/10 Vote Weight

Postby mrchad9 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:39 pm

MoapaPk wrote:Part of the problem is that often route/mountain pages were given up for adoption, and taken over by folks who had never done those peaks/routes. The SP authorities were just glad to have someone care enough to volunteer the time for a minimal rework.

In this case I would rather have no one care for the page and put it under the Orphanage until the right person comes along. The Orphanage needs more power anyway.

http://www.summitpost.org/users/orphanage/66446
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Re: Discounting 10/10 Vote Weight

Postby Josh Lewis » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:57 pm

asmrz wrote:If I want to go somewhere and SP has any info on the place, it is 10 for me.


So it's the best info ever? :? It's this kind of thinking that is why the most popular pages will have the best score too... even if the page isn't that good. Well I guess if popular is the best, obscure is the worst. I guess that's why I make the worst pages. :twisted: :lol: :wink:
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Re: Discounting 10/10 Vote Weight

Postby asmrz » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:55 am

Josh I do not have any need for Whitney, Denali, Aconcagua or hundreds of othet popular pages. What I was refering to, were pages for mountains and routes that can be found nowhere else. Those have extremely high value to me and I would give them 10 just out of appreciation for having any data at all. When one just starts out, one is looking for any and all data, after a while, the unusual and the obscure are the most valuable. That would be another criteria for me, if I were to be asked about power ratings. Give most points to the obscure and unusual, remote and unclimbed. That is where value lies...If it is NOT in my (large) library, it has value to me!
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