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Double loop bowline (aka bowline on a bight)

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Double loop bowline (aka bowline on a bight)

Postby wildoats » Tue May 04, 2010 8:51 pm

A couple weeks ago, I lead a trad route that topped out at two closely spaced anchors. I usually climb with the trango alpine equilizer, but I have the 6-foot version which really only works well with anchor points that are decently spread out. For this case, I had to collapse the inner loop and fix the outer loops into short clove hitches to setup a good anchor to belay a follower.

It worked, but looked like a black-widow web with all the excess length from the equilizer just hanging there. When I got home I reopened my 'Rock Climbing Anchors: A Comprehensive Guide' (Leubben) to see what I've forgotten...and lo and behold I found the double loop bowline (also the double loop figure 8, but the book states the bowline is 'more redundant' assuming you cinch everything down properly).

So I'm wondering if you can belay off of this knot in an autoblock-mode? I would think you could by clipping through the three 'layers' of rope at the bottom of the knot as a master-point (with the shelf being clipping through the top two loops running to the anchor). I don't really trust my at-home tests with some coord and me pulling on the rope.

Asking around at the gym, most people have 'heard' of this knot, but no one that's really used it. Don't know if that counts as strike 1 against this method, but hey...it's in a book right?

Anyone use this? Am I right/wrong in assuming I can autoblock off of it, assuming that the next pitch isn't a rope-stretcher?
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Postby ShortTimer » Wed May 05, 2010 7:42 pm

We used to use this knot to tie into the rope so it isn't going to fail. My question really is are you clipping 2 bolts or two pieces of mank pro? It certainly sounds like you are over thinking and over complicating the whole process.
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Postby wildoats » Wed May 05, 2010 11:44 pm

Sorry, route topped out and shared a 2-bolt anchor with a mixed route. Bolts were brand new and completely bomber. There wasn't any sharp rock, in fact it was a little bit of a hanging belay (thin foot ledge that just made my calf cramp up).

Guess I'm just looking for a cleaner way to setup the anchor to autoblock off of. This seemed pretty straightforward and clean, as you're not adding any slings/draws/etc to the anchor. I just couldn't tell whether or not the three loops of rope at the base of the knot could be used as a master point.

Obviously this wouldn't apply to all routes, especially if the pro has wider spacing (since the wider the spacing the more rope is eaten up by the knot). I guess this would only apply to routes that have bolted belay stations.
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Postby The Chief » Thu May 06, 2010 3:34 pm

I agree with Shorty!

To be honest, am totally confused at your question/OP.

I think that you are complicating things by over thinking.

Why didn't you just double up your "cord" (Trango) thus shortening it, attach it to each biner that you have on the bolt hangers and then just set up a standard tie-in belay Power Point?

You can pretty much use any tie off system when using a Direct Belay (Autoblock) Power Point.

This is about as SIMPLE & SAFE as it can get!!!
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Postby wildoats » Thu May 06, 2010 5:02 pm

knoback - thanks, I thought that would be a decent option, and thanks for the warning of it being a pain.

Chief - No argument from me , that's how I learned to setup an anchors.

Once again, didn't mean to cause any confusion. Saw a knot in a book that looked promising. I guess I'll throw this knot into the 'just in case' scenario. Kind of like knowing how to use a munter in case you drop your belay device, just to know a couple of options to setup an anchor if no other cord/slings were available.

As I originally said, I did shorten the trango using clove hitches on each loop. I don't think you can double-up the alpine equilizer, you could wrap it a couple of time around each biner on each bolt/pro for some minor adjustments. The equilizer has worked great for me, as it lets you setup an equilized belay station very quickly. I guess this was just a case of being overly concerned with aesthetics.

Thanks guys. I'm a nerdy engineer...so it's not uncommon for me to overthink something. The knot looked interesting, I played around with it at home, but didn't want to take it outside without asking around.
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Postby The Chief » Thu May 06, 2010 5:04 pm

My advice, again this coming from a 10th Grade Dropout.... Standardize & *KISS!

KISS will in fact keep you alive when the situ arises my friend.














*Keep It Simple & Safe
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Postby wildoats » Thu May 06, 2010 7:18 pm

That definition of KISS is a bit 'friendlier' than the one I'm more familiar with:

Keep
It
Simple,
Stupid!

:)
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Postby nartreb » Thu May 06, 2010 7:33 pm

I'm thinking a double bowline is a pretty bulky knot - you may have trouble getting a 'biner over the "master point" you have in mind. Stick with Chief's doubled cordelette/sling, or make the equivalent out of two shorter slings, if you feel the need to equalize bomber new bolts at all.
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Postby ShortTimer » Fri May 07, 2010 10:34 pm

Tie your rope into one bolt. Clip a runner into the other and then into you. Clip a draw into either bolt and belay off that. They fricken bolts are not coming out!
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