The Chief wrote:Regardless who are the culprits of this new deal on Keeler, I just learned that my efforts on opening the Williamson Area are on hold indefinitely.

Reason, investigations to the bolting of new routes in the designated Wilderness Areas within the Inyo Natl Forest, with a PD!

I was just told that SEKI Wilderness Ranger/s are also looking into the "exuberant" PD behavior last year on the NF of Mt. Chamberlain. This of course is a clear violation of both NPS and USFS laws.

Now, ya think I am pissed?

You fkng bet I am!!!!

Chief.....Your efforts are commendable regarding the Williamson.

But the folks your dealing with, Forest service/Nat Parks people are all crooks ( I am sure they are nice folks face to face ) and liars (and I bet they are MLC SC members to )

They will "work" with you till you are blue in your face....

If they wish to shut it down, they will, bolting, trash, feces..... any excuse will work for them.

Our best hope is for the government to run out of $$$$$$$$ and "close the place down" then we can start climbing more.

Guy...Bullshit!

Your last post equates to calling all Cops in general, a bunch of Nazi's, for doing their job and enforcing the laws that they were hired to enforce.

The laws are in place. Wanna change em, play the game that needs to be played to change em. They are not changed by telling the LEOs to fuk off and then do what ya damn well please.

It only ruins it for the masses and those efforts in the mix, to make the changes to benefit the masses.

The Chief wrote:Guy...Bullshit!

Your last post equates to calling all Cops in general, a bunch of Nazi's, for doing their job and enforcing the laws that they were hired to enforce.

The laws are in place. Wanna change em, play the game that needs to be played to change em. They are not changed by telling the LEOs to fuk off and then do what ya damn well please.

It only ruins it for the masses and those efforts in the mix, to make the changes to benefit the masses.

Chief, The Laws never change.

I can't think of one example where cooperation with them has gained climbers anything.

not one.

that's just my experience.

And cops are not Nazi's.... the police really do good things for us.

I just see "Land Managers" as utter scum for the way they have mismanaged all of it, and for the tactics they use.

In short, I don't trust any of them.

gk

Guy...

Personal opinions DO NOT JUSTIFY ILL BEHAVIORS by a selected few, that consequently affect the ACCESS RIGHTS of the rest of the climbing world.

The Chief wrote:Guy...

Personal opinions DO NOT JUSTIFY ILL BEHAVIORS by a selected few, that consequently affect the ACCESS RIGHTS of the rest of the climbing world.

Rick... All I am trying to say is this: The game is rigged, we don't have a say in any of it. At all.

We have zero "rights" when it comes to access..... look around, please name anyplace where "our rights" have even been considered.

Guyzo wrote:look around, please name anyplace where "our rights" have even been considered.

Locally:

Clark- USFS
Al's Garage- USFS
Rock Creek-USFS
Benton Crags- USFS
Granite Basin- USFS
Lee Vining Cnyn- DWP/SC&E
Horse Tail Falls- DWP/SC&E
The Gorge-DWP
Pine Creek-USFS & the Pvt Mining Ops/Owner
Buttermilks- DWP/BLM
The Happy's- DWP/BLM
Mt.Humphrey NF- DWP/SC&E
Mountain Light Wall- DWP
A-Hills- BLM
Owens Ridge- DWP

Just to name a few!

All of these have remained ACCESSIBLE via cooperative efforts by the local climbing community and the landowners.

Many grass roots local climbers worked WITH the landowners to achieve and establish the incredible relationships that we have today... not against them!

To keep these places accessible, we must play by their rules, the landowners, not ours.

The Chief wrote:

Guyzo wrote:look around, please name anyplace where "our rights" have even been considered.

Locally:

Clark- USFS
Al's Garage- USFS
Rock Creek-USFS
Benton Crags- USFS
Granite Basin- USFS
Lee Vining Cnyn- DWP/SC&E
Horse Tail Falls- DWP/SC&E
The Gorge-DWP
Pine Creek-USFS & the Pvt Mining Ops/Owner
Buttermilks- DWP/BLM
The Happy's- DWP/BLM
Mt.Humphrey NF- DWP/SC&E
Mountain Light Wall- DWP
A-Hills- BLM
Owens Ridge- DWP

Just to name a few!

All of these have remained ACCESSIBLE via cooperative efforts by the local climbing community and the landowners.

Many grass roots local climbers worked WITH the landowners to achieve and establish the incredible relationships that we have today... not against them!

To keep these places accessible, we must play by their rules, the landowners, not ours.

All good climbing places for sure.

But the "Landowner" of all of those places is us..... the taxpayers. (the DWP is a public entity)

Any of those places could be closed at a moments notice, for no reason, like Williamson Rock and Mt. Williamson are.

If those folks who are keeping Mt. Williamson closed, (illegally according to info you dug up) are using the fact that a POWER DRILL was used in the wilderness as justification for keeping it closed, only strengthens my point.

We have no rights and land managers don't really consider us climbers into the decisions they reach.

This is just my humble opinion based on many years of observations.

Sorry Guy, but LADWP and SC&E Lands on which these climbing ares are on, are PRIVATELY OWNED RESOURCE ENTITIES at the time of their purchase!

Tax payers have absolutely nothing to do with the ownership of their lands and property.

I am not going to argue semantics anymore Gary.

The fact is, I had my foot in the door on the Williamson gig. And now, due to some misbehavior on the part of a very few selfish climbers who did not want to follow the prescribed rules/laws, that door has just been shut in my face.

And that is no fault of anyones other than those selfish few that tossed the idea of cooperation, out the door, in order to appease their personal agenda.

Just like any ACCESS issue out there, we all need to play by the rules. We will not win shit with attitudes that simply tell the rule makers and enforcers...FK YOU!

I am out the door to speak to the POC and see what I can do to reestablish my quest for opening Williamson permanently...again!

The Chief wrote:Sorry Guy, but LADWP and SC&E Lands on which these climbing ares are on, are PRIVATELY OWNED RESOURCE ENTITIES at the time of their purchase!

Tax payers have absolutely nothing to do with the ownership of their lands and property.

I am not going to argue semantics anymore Gary.

The fact is, I had my foot was in the door on the Williamson gig. And now, due to some misbehavior on the part of a very few selfish climbers who did not want to follow the prescribed rules/laws, that door has just been shut in my face.

And that is no fault of anyones other than those selfish few that tossed the idea of cooperation, out the door, in order to appease their personal agenda.

Just like any ACCESS issue out there, we all need to play by the rules. We will not win shit with attitudes that simply tell the rule makers and enforcers...FK YOU!

I think if you look into the charters that the DWP and SC&E operate under, you will find some language, that points to a responsibility for "common good or public service".

That is why DWP lets fishermen/climbers/hikers/horse folks use the land.


Now if you say "the door has been slammed" on your face with the williamson deal, well than it probability was never really opened in the first place.

Those folks have been jerking your chain.

Thats the way it is with those folks.

The only thing that will have any effect is using the LAW on them.

When the park manager closed "The Devils Punch Bowl" to climbing, all it took was a little "legal reminder" that the charter granting the park's existence cited "Mountain Climbing, Hiking, Horseback Riding and other forms of outdoor recreation as "allowed activities".

Now if the Mt. Williamson closure is really Illegal, as you say it is, than those folks have no choice but to follow the law.

So get a legal team together and stop with the "nice,nice" "door opening" BS.

That is a waste of your time.

late

Gary Schenk wrote:

Guyzo wrote:

Gary Schenk wrote:

Dave Daly wrote:

"No one as of yet has taken credit for it. But I have my suspicions of a certain crew that has been very active in that area. Just waiting to read the post on their site."

Hmmmm.....perhaps the same crew who put up a certain route on the South Face of LPP??

What route are you referring to?

Gary, Dave can be pretty cryptic sometimes.

this might help, http://pullharder.org/ .....

gk

Guy, are these guys sport bolting Lone Pine Peak? I can think of a couple of people who might take exception to that.

That photo of Keeler Needle is a joke of some sort?

No Joke.

I have no first hand info about the deal.

Hate to speculate on it.

Dude, the Keeler Needle pic on Pull Harder is a joke. It's in the "Bullsh*t" category on the page. It shows a bolt on the moon, and features comments by Neil Armstrong, Royal Robbins, Warren Harding and Ceasar Maestri.

I think they're pullin' The Chief's leg....

I like the way the route describes a huge "S" in the lower third. I'll take that as a tribute!



edit: At least I hope it's a joke...

ksolem wrote:Dude, the Keeler Needle pic on Pull Harder is a joke. It's in the "Bullsh*t" category on the page. It shows a bolt on the moon, and features comments by Neil Armstrong, Royal Robbins, Warren Harding and Ceasar Maestri.

I think they're pullin' The Chief's leg....

I like the way the route describes a huge "S" in the lower third. I'll take that as a tribute!



edit: At least I hope it's a joke...

Kind of odd that they posted this "joke" route on their site on the 26th of Oct, before I even mentioned it's location on Keeler, here on SP???????

Guyzo wrote:I think if you look into the charters that the DWP and SC&E operate under, you will find some language, that points to a responsibility for "common good or public service".

That is why DWP lets fishermen/climbers/hikers/horse folks use the land.

Again, sorry Guy... you are wrong.

LADWP and SC&E DO NOT HAVE TO ALLOW anyone on any area within 1000' that they consider a potential danger to their equipment, water ways or pipes that feed any component of the LA Aqueduct. Even more so now after 9/11.

The local DWP District Sup showed me the current manual and all the rules and regs a couple of months ago at Crowley Lake. He was working alongside my Wife checking all the in coming boats for the Invasive Mussels.

Here you go. This was on the Taco.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum ... prise_bolt

About 10 people were already getting the chopping gear out.

Later it all stopped when the word was that, Clark Jacobs his-self put in another bolt....

I don't know why he did that.

I really think it is a eye-sore bolt, one that will no doubt draw some folks dangerously off-route when climbing "Surprise" 5.8, the mega classic.

"Surprise" is very historic, it was the first face climb that used bolts on the Weeping Wall, way back in 65.

So I think it sucks big time, but I will not go hack the thing.

gk

Guyzo wrote:I really think it is a eye-sore bolt, one that will no doubt draw some folks dangerously off-route when climbing "Surprise" 5.8, the mega classic.

It may be an eye-sore, but I think you're exaggerating a little there Guy. It is so, so, SO, easy up there that I doubt anybody will be drawn "dangerously" off route. I think the real issue is that because it's so easy, most people will now mindlessly go to it and clip it. In fact, the bolt is probably very close to being on Surprise despite the fact that it's actually on Clam Chowder.

Unfortunate? Yes.

When I asked Clark what he knew about a "new" bolt on Surprise he told me it was actually on Clam Chowder. My reaction was, "So? That's just as bad since there weren't any bolts on the first pitch of Clam Chowder either." Then I got the background of what had happened.

As mentioned in the ST thread, the Surprise FA party did have protection at approximately the same place. A tied off knife blade (one of a few). In some respects the nature of the pitch is now once again closer to what the FA party experienced. I'm not trying to convince people this makes it right/wrong, just pointing out there are things to consider before chopping.

I really wish it had been left alone but it wasn't. I think it's generally accepted that the FA party can retro their own routes, and that is what happened. The fact that the bolt can (and probably will be) used by Surprise is something to be weighed but is only one more factor.

For those who were up in arms enough to chop first and ask later I hope there is a lesson; Things aren't always cut and dried, or black and white. Take the time to get the facts straight first, then act if appropriate.

All that said, add a bolt to a route at Suicide without FA consent and it will likely suffer an abrupt fate.

(Edit: Kris - picture by Powell)

The Chief wrote:

ksolem wrote:Dude, the Keeler Needle pic on Pull Harder is a joke. It's in the "Bullsh*t" category on the page. It shows a bolt on the moon, and features comments by Neil Armstrong, Royal Robbins, Warren Harding and Ceasar Maestri.

I think they're pullin' The Chief's leg....

I like the way the route describes a huge "S" in the lower third. I'll take that as a tribute!



edit: At least I hope it's a joke...

Kind of odd that they posted this "joke" route on their site on the 26th of Oct, before I even mentioned it's location on Keeler, here on SP???????

Chief, that photo was a total joke to pull your leg b/c you immediately implied it was them.. and yes, you're post beat Scotty's by a bit - he put it up directly in response to you, but it's been pulled from the front page b/c the purpose of the site is not to joke with one person, but rather share climbing experiences with friends, family, and whoever is interested - and hopefully even inspire a few to go out there and "pull harder". None of the pullharder crew knows anything about a new route on Keeler, and I believe most would be appalled if there is actually a 200+ bolted route on there. Get a grip. Also, go climb MSMR - the first 4 ascents agree that it's well protected, but not over protected - to the point I doubt anyone would have objected had the power drill not come out. Let it rest - they screwed up, know it, and learned from it. The end result? An awesome route that would have gone up anyhow (just taken a few more trips to finish), even if hand-drilling had been used for all of it instead of half of it.

edit: Chief, check your post from "Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:17 am GMT" - Scotty's went up on PH after that.