Flexibility and Suppleness - key to injury prevention and increased strength.

Something will tear if it's over stretched or over loaded beyond what it's done before. I played International Badminton for 13 years, including across the US. It's the sport with the fastest pace and fastest smash (217mph). And at the same rock climbed and cycle raced.

http://fasthing.blogspot.com/2008/08/fa ... smash.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIYbsGYT4m4&NR=1
With movements like those and without being rubber flexible, you'd snap in two.

Great improvement in strength comes with high flexibility as the muscle fibres are acting through their entire length. Joint strength, cartilage, ligaments are all strengthened too. Back strength can be enhanced by flexible stomach muscles.

I do basic Yoga stretching every morning and evening - especially hip / back rotations (lie on back and rotate hips), and hamstring stretches.

Quick test: Lie on the floor, on your side with lower leg z-bent for balance, then raise other leg in the air and hold your toes with corresponding arm. Leg don't straighten does it! Can you sit on the floor and get your forehead on your knees. Nope. Can you join hands behind your back with one hand over your shoulder and the other up from your waist. Nope. Then you aren't supple, you can injure more easily.

It's takes about 1 to 3 months to get fully supple. Essential to be flexible in both directions of all muscle groups. You will find incredible benefits. At 55, I'm more flexible than I've ever been and still smash the hell out of players half my age.

This Fine Gentis your man for some really intense instruction in this matter.

Trust me! He has become one of the finest and most knowledgeable in the field.

Fully supple is highly overrated for climbing if you ask me. All it does is open up those shoulder joints so that you can tear the labrum. I'll take tightly put together any day. It's a good thing too because that is all I am ever gonna have.

Thanks for the accolade, Chief.

I’ve been studying many aspects of training and rehab for the last several years, and the more I learn the more I realize there is left to figure out. Nutrition, for example, is a field with many different opinions and ideologies.

Anyway, I think RayMondo raises a very important point. It amazes me how many fitness oriented people completely ignore the flexibility component of their training.

Shortimer, Your point about hypermobile shoulders is a good one, but RayMondo’s test, being able to clasp your hands (or at least touch fingers) behind your back one from above the other from below does not require hypermobility. And you are a good example of being balanced even if you are built tightly. Heck, I know you do some stretches. I’ve seen it.

The thing with shoulders is that by design they are a joint which trades off stability for having a large range of motion. I have done Yoga where I thought the mobility of the shoulders was being pushed too far. I lean towards strong solid shoulders with a good range without overdoing. But Yoga varies a lot with so many teachers, philosophies and styles. Lately I do a restorative Yoga class weekly, and I always come out from there feeling centered and solid. But for my real strength training, functional movement and strength, I do Pilates. It’s a lot of bodyweight work and dynamic stretching combined with a mental/visualization thing that really appeals to me.

Man, I got sucked into watching badminton contests on YouTube. That is definitely not the game we used to play in the back yard after mint juleps…

I love the way that one guy jumps, leading into the air with his right arm, then draws that arm down hard so he just hangs there for an instant while he swings with his left. Pretty cool stuff.

"Stretching is a comfortable and reassuring ritual for many people — it’s simple, it feels good, and it seems to promise easy benefits." "Stretching research clearly shows that a stretching habit isn’t good for warmup, injury prevention, preventing or treating muscle soreness, enhancing athletic performance… or even flexibility!"

Source: http://saveyourself.ca/articles/stretching.php

This article is the most complete summary I've found of the scant research that has been done on stretching. Even though the lead line says that it doesn't increase flexibility, later on it says that it does, but questions the usefullness of increased flexibility for most sports, and like one of the above post mentions the risks associated with more flexibility. Although it mentions that acrobats, gymnasts, yogis and martial artists benefit from increased flexability, I imagine that climbers could also benefit.

It also cites research that indicates that pre-run stretching will make you a slower sprinter, but doesn't mention a study I read a few years ago that showed that prestretching lowers bench press strength.

If stretching proponents have any non-hear-say, peer reviewed, research evidence that supports stretching, please post them.

A few quick points:

1.) Any article about stretching which does not distinguish between static and dynamic stretching is not worth the paper it is printed on.

2.) He say the Quads are not stretchable?? Hogwash.

3.) I've worked with some decent martial artists. This guy was in my Pilates teacher training group. World champion in 1988 and in the Olympics. He had about the best hip flexibilty I have ever seen but not so with his shoulders, which are strong and solid with just a normal range - designed and built to take hits.

4.) Dynamic stretching is for warming up. Static stretching will degrade your maximum muscle output for a period of time, but is still important to achieve flexibility - best done after your workout, climb, fight or whatever...

5.) It's all about balance. Take pelvic stability - a direct influence on spinal posture and alignment so necessarry for health - the alignment of the pelvis / lower back is controlled largely by 4 major muscle groups: Extensors of the back, Abdominals, Hamstrings and Quads. If one of these are tight, the pelvis and lower back get pulled out of line.

Balance in flexibility and strength of these four groups is more important than overall flexibility. One must observe one's own body, or pay someone else to, to figure out what needs stretching to achieve balance. Once you have balance you can choose to amplify flexibility depending on the activity you engage in.

Climbers need decent lower body flexibilty for high steps, body english, etc., but shoulder problems are all to common among climbers. With climbers I emphasise push ups.

+1 to ksloem

Warming up is very important before stretching as well. If you are not warmed up you can actually damage yourself while stretching, if you are actually stretching for real instead of just "putting your mind at ease because people say you should stretch before working out" that is.

Brian

ksolem wrote:A few quick points:

1.) Any article about stretching which does not distinguish between static and dynamic stretching is not worth the paper it is printed on.

2.) He say the Quads are not stretchable?? Hogwash.

3.) I've worked with some decent martial artists. This guy was in my Pilates teacher training group. World champion in 1988 and in the Olympics. He had about the best hip flexibilty I have ever seen but not so with his shoulders, which are strong and solid with just a normal range - designed and built to take hits.

4.) Dynamic stretching is for warming up. Static stretching will degrade your maximum muscle output for a period of time, but is still important to achieve flexibility - best done after your workout, climb, fight or whatever...

5.) It's all about balance. Take pelvic stability - a direct influence on spinal posture and alignment so necessarry for health - the alignment of the pelvis / lower back is controlled largely by 4 major muscle groups: Extensors of the back, Abdominals, Hamstrings and Quads. If one of these are tight, the pelvis and lower back get pulled out of line.

Balance in flexibility and strength of these four groups is more important than overall flexibility. One must observe one's own body, or pay someone else to, to figure out what needs stretching to achieve balance. Once you have balance you can choose to amplify flexibility depending on the activity you engage in.

Climbers need decent lower body flexibilty for high steps, body english, etc., but shoulder problems are all to common among climbers. With climbers I emphasise push ups.

ksolem wrote:A few quick points:

1.) Any article about stretching which does not distinguish between static and dynamic stretching is not worth the paper it is printed on.

It could have been more specific, but the article mentions static stretching twice and never specifies ballistic stretching. The large army study also specifies static stretching. Clearly the statement that says that "stretching doesn't warm you up" is not about ballistic stretching.

ksolem wrote:2.) He say the Quads are not stretchable?? Hogwash.

His own reference partly contradicts this claim. It says that the rectus femoris (10-15% of the quads) can be stretched but the other 3 quads can't, which agrees with what I feel when doing traditional forceably flexed knee quad stretches.

ksolem wrote:5.) It's all about balance. Take pelvic stability - a direct influence on spinal posture and alignment so necessarry for health - the alignment of the pelvis / lower back is controlled largely by 4 major muscle groups: Extensors of the back, Abdominals, Hamstrings and Quads. If one of these are tight, the pelvis and lower back get pulled out of line.

I agree where the article says that a strong, precision massage is a much more effective way to loosen tight, slightly strained muscles, especially if the tightness is localized at a "trigger point". In some cases, stretching a tight muscle seems to aggrevate it and make it even tighter.

I'm curious about your term "ballistic stretching." To me this implies using momentum, which I would consider a very bad idea.

Dynamic stretching uses controlled movement, not momentum.

ksolem wrote:I'm curious about your term "ballistic stretching." To me this implies using momentum, which I would consider a very bad idea.

Dynamic stretching uses controlled movement, not momentum.

I think that's a good description of the difference. Ballistic stretching uses a "bouncing" component and incorporates sport-specific motions. Although climbing is a relatively non-ballistic sport, I've seen lots of college sports teams (track, soccer, volleyball, football, cross country, baseball) that do lots of ballistic and dynamic stretching after an easy running warm up. Easily throwing a baseball is a ballistic stretch that's been done for years. It could produce injuries if it's not done easily at first or if a muscle is already injured, but it seems like a better preparation for the numerous ballistic movements that are part of most sports.

Saying that most people don't need to stretch because they have "normal" range of motion is about as smart as saying most people don't need to eat well and exercise because their % of bodyfat is "normal."

Foweyman - I'm not an expert on throwing sports, but I was taught (by physical therapists and pro trainers) that bounce stretching tends to take a joint outside of a person's true range of motion and destabilizes joints as a result.

Here's one for the guy who says improving flexibilty does not help performance. Keep in mind that Pilates is largely dynamic...

A quote from #2 NFL draft pick Calvin Johnson, decribing the way he benefits from Pilates work with trainer Sarah Picott…

“We were open to everything that was going on down there,” Johnson said. “We are aware that people know more about what we do in certain areas. She knew more about flexibility than we did and we learned the more flexible you are, the faster you’re gonna be.”
“People look at Pilates as sort of a girls exercise,” Picot continued. “You can ask any one of those men I worked with including players from Steelers and the Redskins how much we kicked their butts. They were shaking, they were sweating, they were uncomfortable. And then afterwards they felt calm, relaxed, loose. It’s a very empowering program and has so much potential for the NFL.”

At 6’5”, 239 lbs., he ran under 4.4 in the 40…

Well, even the basic Yoga got me back in shape. In fact re-mobilised me completely. For 7 years I suffered from complete fascia tears in the abs and could barely do anything. So now I stretch out 2x day.

Good mention of diet too. Look after your insides, and they will look after you. We pay for good oil in our engines. So put nutritive food in, not crap. Not meaning to deviate from the original topic, but take a read on Alkalizing Diets. http://www.energiseforlife.com/list_of_ ... _foods.php

I met a 70 year-young guy in S. Africa out training their rugby team who got me into this Alkalizing diet. His girlfriend was 23 and he was still going strong!

ksolem wrote:Foweyman - I'm not an expert on throwing sports, but I was taught (by physical therapists and pro trainers) that bounce stretching tends to take a joint outside of a person's true range of motion and destabilizes joints as a result.

Throwing was just an example to illustrate that ballistic stretching has been around for a long time. Yes, ballistic stretching can be overdone, but that isn't how it's done. For example: baseball players don't go out cold and start throwing their hardest fastball, they start with easy lobbing and increase speed as they warm up. It's the same in other sports, start slow and easy with sport specific ballistic motions... The main purpose is to gradually get the joints and muscles active in the ranges and types of ballistic motions that they are about to be used. It's purpose is more of an injury preventing warm up than a flexibility increasing stretching program. To me it's also more intuitively applicable, because just pulling on the muscles doesn't seem like adequate preparation for the powerful ballistic motions that occur in many sports.

If done excessively or improperly, static and dynamic stretching can also create too much flexibility and "take a joint outside of a person's true range of motion and destabilize joints as a result".

"we learned the more flexible you are, the faster you’re gonna be.”

References? I have trouble believing this huge non-specific generalization. It's probably true for couch potatoes, but if it were universally true, sprinters would be doing gymnast-like static stretches to improve all their joint's flexibility. Sprinters are not nearly as flexible as gymnasts. Running, even sprinting, doesn't require an extraordinary range of motion in any of the joints, so there is no reason to do extra stretching to improve the range of motion (hurdlers being the exception and they do specific stretches to facilitate efficient form).

Have it your way. I’ve only been studying this stuff with pros for a few years now. Maybe I’m a nooby to the field. I do know a number of people in their 30’s/40’s who are still trying to undo the damage done to their bodies in high school and college sports where they were pushed to do damaging routines by irresponsible coaches. I just cringe when I see the guys on our local high school football team out there on the field bounce stretching trying to touch their toes after running around the track a few times.

foweyman wrote:

"we learned the more flexible you are, the faster you’re gonna be.”

References? I have trouble believing this huge non-specific generalization. It's probably true for couch potatoes, but if it were universally true, sprinters would be doing gymnast-like static stretches to improve all their joint's flexibility. Sprinters are not nearly as flexible as gymnasts. Running, even sprinting, doesn't require an extraordinary range of motion in any of the joints, so there is no reason to do extra stretching to improve the range of motion (hurdlers being the exception and they do specific stretches to facilitate efficient form).

That non-specific generalization comes from a guy who, when he said it, was one of the fastest sprinters in the nfl. Couch potato?

Consider the possibility that he was not doing any flexibility work but trained hard and had the natural ability to be fast. Then Tom Shaw (a top trainer who specializes is getting nfl draft hopefuls ready for the combine and pro day’s) steps in and adds some Pilates to Calvin Johnson’s mix. What he gets from Pilates is improved flexibility and control (the two actually go together with the right techniques) and he gets faster. There is nothing non-specific or generalized about it. It is the observation of a top pro athlete based on his personal experience.

Also, you are missing my point about balance vs. “extraordinary range of motion.” In my first post I spoke against trying to achieve hypermobility in the shoulders due to the increased chance of injury there. Stretching and being limber is about balance between opposing muscle groups, not “extraordinary range of motion.” As I said, once a person has achieved balance they can work to expand their range depending on the activities they pursue. If you are coaching hurdlers and only have them stretch for the specific movement of their sport you are going to have some very sore and unhappy athletes several years down the road.