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Postby bird » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:59 pm

Mountain Impulse wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by trained in Crossfit. I do some of the WOD's or variations thereof, but I've never done a certification seminar. Of course I didn't mean workouts are 100% anaerobic but as you note "performed at high intensity" means "anaerobic focused." My only point was I feel I get more out of crossfit workouts by having a decent aerobic base to begin with.

That's my point, Performed at high intensity does not mean anaerobic focused. By that definition, running at high intensity for 5K is anaerobic. In short, anaerobic can be described as unsustainable for more than 2 minutes. Bench pressing, yes, heavy squatting, yes, but when you combine these elements with what are traditionally called aerobic exercises like running, what do you have? Something that provides the benefits of both.
Furthermore, pure aerobic exercises will burn muscle, while anaerobic (and crossfit) will build muscle. Just compare a sprinter to a marathon runner. The logic of running to get in shape for crossfit just doesn't fly. That's all I'm trying to point out.
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Postby Snowslogger » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:01 am

Apex wrote:Thanks Mountain Impulse,

One problem that I can forsee if I did some interval training while running would be that I would burn myself out too early, and get cramps, and thus have to walk to recover... Would like to know your thoughts on this.

And I had hoped getting back into shape would be fairly easy, but it isn't seeming so. While I was rowing that was really the only thing I did for fitness, so I have a rowers build, which I am trying to get rid of, because it isn't all that useful for other sports (especially climbing!!).


I wouldn't think a rower's build is a problem, my kid's a competitive rower and kicked my butt backpacking and scrambling in the Sierra this summer (first day - I'll take more of the group gear since I'm older and more experienced, second day - I'll split it evenly, third day - he gets all the group gear, gotta slow him down!). I think the erg (rowing machine) is maybe the best total body workouts. Back to your question, intervals once maybe twice a week is probably good in addition to regular aerobic. Variety is good too, whether you call it crossfit or whatever. Either way, don't worry, you'll get it back.
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Postby Apex » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:20 am

Alright, looks like a great workout Bird :)
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Postby Augie Medina » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:25 pm

bird wrote:That's my point, Performed at high intensity does not mean anaerobic focused.


"...has prompted us to advocate regular high intensity training in as many training modalities as possible through largely anaerobic efforts and intervals...."

The Crossfit Journal Oct. 2002 at page 5.

bird,

I'm sure we've probably exhausted Apex's attention by now with our back and forth. Honestly, though, because of my lifelong interest in high fitness (and I'm sure it's the same for you), I find this a very interesting topic. And just so I'm not misunderstood I firmly believe anaerobic training is key to maintaining fitness (and, as you point out, especially building and maintaining muscle mass). Too many people rely solely on aerobic training to keep in shape and this misses a lot. That is the beauty of cross-fit in providing programs of creative, challenging workouts toward the anaerobic side of what crossfit calls the body's "metabolic pathways."

I guess where we disagree is whether cross-fit is a good approach for someone totally out of shape (and I realize this doesn't apply to Apex) as a place to begin. I could be wrong. I'd love to see some solid studies on this.

Cheers,

Augie
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Postby mconnell » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:40 pm

I find it interesting that someone that is enough of an athlete to make it to national championships is asking a bunch of weekend warriors how to get in shape.
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Postby Apex » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:56 pm

Snowslogger, did your son do any other fitness while he rowed competitively last year? I literally did nothing but row/erg for a whole year (have been rowing for 3 years), with maybe the odd 5km run when the weather was too bad to row, and no one wanted to erg. I was having a stray conversation with my coach, and we got to the topic of how rowing is somehow bad if you want to do other sports. He said that because you are sitting down, you are able to exert yourself more than if you were standing. However, your reflexes become slower, coordination becomes worse, and a few other minor things that I can't think of off the top of my head. I believe this is completely true. I used to play hockey, tennis, basketball, etc. I did play infrequently while I was rowing, but my skill, coordination, speed, agility, pretty much every aspect of those sports were worse. Some may say that it was because I didn't play them regularly, but this was noticeably worse. It's hard to explain.


Mountain Impulse, I'm not tired at all of the going back forth, it is very interesting to read.

And Mconnel, yes, I competed at a National level last year (for rowing). While I may have been in shape then, I am sure as hell not anymore. Also, I want to get in shape for general fitness( focused on climbing/mountaineering as a long term goal), not rowing fitness, which I previously was. I was also sick for a month over the summer, lost alot of muscle mass, gained fat, etc.
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Postby bird » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:15 pm

Mountain Impulse wrote:
bird wrote:That's my point, Performed at high intensity does not mean anaerobic focused.


"...has prompted us to advocate regular high intensity training in as many training modalities as possible through largely anaerobic efforts and intervals...."

The Crossfit Journal Oct. 2002 at page 5.

bird,

I'm sure we've probably exhausted Apex's attention by now with our back and forth. Honestly, though, because of my lifelong interest in high fitness (and I'm sure it's the same for you), I find this a very interesting topic. And just so I'm not misunderstood I firmly believe anaerobic training is key to maintaining fitness (and, as you point out, especially building and maintaining muscle mass). Too many people rely solely on aerobic training to keep in shape and this misses a lot. That is the beauty of cross-fit in providing programs of creative, challenging workouts toward the anaerobic side of what crossfit calls the body's "metabolic pathways."

I guess where we disagree is whether cross-fit is a good approach for someone totally out of shape (and I realize this doesn't apply to Apex) as a place to begin. I could be wrong. I'd love to see some solid studies on this.

Cheers,

Augie

Nice quote above, point taken, but getting back my main beef that was skirted, earlier you said
"you should get your basic aerobic conditioning to a good level before moving on to crossfit."
Crossfit will provide aerobic conditioning...
"The clincher is that CrossFit athletes have demonstrated improved endurance performance without endurance training, and even more amazingly, in clinical trials CrossFit’s high intensity regimen has produced improvements in endurance measures that rivaled those achieved through programs comprised largely of endurance efforts." Crossfit Journal June 03
As for someone totally out of shape I will look for studies, but I believe crossfit is just as applicable. Looking at the workout I posted earlier, take someone who's never trained and have them try this...
Walk 200 meters
10 standing pushups against a wall
Walk 200 meters
20 squats (1/2 depth with hand on bar for balance)
Walk 200 meters
20 crunches
Walk 200 meters
10 walking lunges
That would challenge someone without crushing them. If I have some time, I'll dig around for research on CF for the unconditioned.
Thanks for the stimulating back and forth.
Eric
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Postby Apex » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:24 pm

Bird, I forgot to ask about your workout earlier. It was something along the lines of running 1/4 mile, then doing some push-ups, lunges, squats, etc... Did you want that 1/4 mile to be 100% effort?
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Postby bird » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:34 pm

Apex wrote:Bird, I forgot to ask about your workout earlier. It was something along the lines of running 1/4 mile, then doing some push-ups, lunges, squats, etc... Did you want that 1/4 mile to be 100% effort?

Hell yes...it's crossfit :wink:
Actually, it should be difficult and sustained and hard, but not so hard you have to catch your breath for 5 minutes before you do the other stuff. Figure what is your best time for 1 mile, then run the 1/4's at that pace.
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Postby Snowslogger » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:26 am

Apex wrote:Snowslogger, did your son do any other fitness while he rowed competitively last year? I literally did nothing but row/erg for a whole year (have been rowing for 3 years), with maybe the odd 5km run when the weather was too bad to row, and no one wanted to erg. I was having a stray conversation with my coach, and we got to the topic of how rowing is somehow bad if you want to do other sports. He said that because you are sitting down, you are able to exert yourself more than if you were standing. However, your reflexes become slower, coordination becomes worse, and a few other minor things that I can't think of off the top of my head. I believe this is completely true. I used to play hockey, tennis, basketball, etc. I did play infrequently while I was rowing, but my skill, coordination, speed, agility, pretty much every aspect of those sports were worse. Some may say that it was because I didn't play them regularly, but this was noticeably worse. It's hard to explain.


Mountain Impulse, I'm not tired at all of the going back forth, it is very interesting to read.

And Mconnel, yes, I competed at a National level last year (for rowing). While I may have been in shape then, I am sure as hell not anymore. Also, I want to get in shape for general fitness( focused on climbing/mountaineering as a long term goal), not rowing fitness, which I previously was. I was also sick for a month over the summer, lost alot of muscle mass, gained fat, etc.



Apex,

He did mainly rowing/erging, but also ab workouts, jumpies (squat jumps), running, etc. (especially in the winter when they were off the water). I think rowing is really good for fitness, but probably not so much for hand eye coordination ball sports. You're in Canada right? Did you go to Brentwood by any chance (he's with Rose City Rowing Club in Portland, and they go up there every year).
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Postby Augie Medina » Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:09 am

bird wrote:
Nice quote above, point taken, but getting back my main beef that was skirted, earlier you said
"you should get your basic aerobic conditioning to a good level before moving on to crossfit."
Crossfit will provide aerobic conditioning...
"The clincher is that CrossFit athletes have demonstrated improved endurance performance without endurance training, and even more amazingly, in clinical trials CrossFit’s high intensity regimen has produced improvements in endurance measures that rivaled those achieved through programs comprised largely of endurance efforts." Crossfit Journal June 03
As for someone totally out of shape I will look for studies, but I believe crossfit is just as applicable. Looking at the workout I posted earlier, take someone who's never trained and
have them try this...
Walk 200 meters
10 standing pushups against a wall
Walk 200 meters
20 squats (1/2 depth with hand on bar for balance)
Walk 200 meters
20 crunches
Walk 200 meters
10 walking lunges
That would challenge someone without crushing them. If I have some time, I'll dig around for research on CF for the unconditioned.
Thanks for the stimulating back and forth.
Eric


Thanks for that info Eric. If you do find any studies on "coach potato to Cross-Fit athlete"
I'd be interested in seeing them. As for the beginner workout you set forth above, I agree that it could be done by someone not in very good shape--but is it really in the "high intensity" Cross-Fit mode? I appreciate your point --take the level down to match the current conditioning of the individual. Anyway, I enjoy the thought provoking give and take.
By the way, I thought that was a pretty good workout you suggested for Apex.

Apex,

On those 400's, I'd say do 90% effort. Maybe start with 90 second quarters and adjust if you have to to keep it to 90% effort for all 4 quarters at the same pace. Warm up well though-don't want a pulled hamstring!
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Postby Apex » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:35 am

Thanks Snowslogger, and yes, I am still a student at Brentwood.

And I did that workout earlier today. I probably could have gone harder on the 1/4 miles, and could have done more reps of the exercises.
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Postby bird » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:46 pm

Apex wrote:Thanks Snowslogger, and yes, I am still a student at Brentwood.

And I did that workout earlier today. I probably could have gone harder on the 1/4 miles, and could have done more reps of the exercises.

Better to have done it too easy (and safe) than too hard with a bad outcome.
Over time you'll learn where the "sweet spot" is.
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Postby bird » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:48 pm

Mountain Impulse wrote:
Thanks for that info Eric. If you do find any studies on "coach potato to Cross-Fit athlete"
I'd be interested in seeing them. As for the beginner workout you set forth above, I agree that it could be done by someone not in very good shape--but is it really in the "high intensity" Cross-Fit mode? I appreciate your point --take the level down to match the current conditioning of the individual. Anyway, I enjoy the thought provoking give and take.
By the way, I thought that was a pretty good workout you suggested for Apex.

Thanks,
Keep in mind it's all relative. For the untrained athlete, I bet that workout would seem intense.
Will check on the Couch to crossfit info.
Cheers
Eric
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Postby sshankle » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:45 pm

Apex wrote:One major problem that I have is because I live in a dorm residence (with a roomate), There isn't easy access to a bunch of the things required for some exercises. I was thinking that a solution would be to do the Crossfit exercises that don't really require any equipment instead of the ones that do. On days that do require equipment, I could just go into the archives and find one that doesn't, and do that.


Here's a nice list of minimal equipment CrossFit WODs. I occasionally hammer myself at the local university track. There's a pullup bar, I can take a kettlebell or a jump-rope (there's another idea for some tough intervals). I've seen a few good runners (tri-athletes, etc.) dive into strength training as a step into CrossFit, in order to get and maintain a more well rounded fitness level.

Further Resources for easing into this type of training:
Simplefit
Brand-X

bird wrote:Will check on the Couch to crossfit info.


The CF testimonials forum is full of them... Like this one. Also may want to look at the "Special Populations category in the CFJ. Net that the OP would apply to this category.

Good luck APEX. 3...2...1...GO!
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