ExcitableBoy wrote:http://www.summitpost.org/view_object.php?object_id=774179&type=vote_comments&discussion_id=443097#443097

Yep, that makes it all worth it!

Euro Death Knot? No thanks. I'd rather use a plastic nut.

Why the name?

I don't know why/how the name came about, but I love it because it exploits a funny quirk of our brain...we expect the name of something to tell us about the thing itself. By giving such a dark and scary name to a method/concept/knot, we seem to rule it out immediately. But anyone who needs to make 8-10 rappels from a big face loves this knot and isn't stymied by the name. This person tells you about it and tosses out the name unblinking, like a challenge...are you in?

MVS and my mutual friend, Alex, who is of Austrian extraction, introduced this knot to me and used that name. I did not know there was an acutal name for it (overhand or flat bend) until researching the article.

Do people still recommend the double fisherman's for ropes of UNequal diameters? EDK seems a lot easier to tie and untie...

I've used it plenty of times in the situation of a main rope of 9.4 mm and a 7 mm static tag line. In this case I often want the knot on the side of the anchor with the thinner rope, to prevent gradual drift of the knot down towards me. The only bummer is that then your retrieval job is harder (always pulling the thin rope), and it messes up the rythym of a multiple-rappel scenario, where you are more efficient if you alternate the pull direction with each new rappel.

If the ropes are closer in diameter, say a 9.4 and a 8.0, knot drift is less of an issue and I'm not dogmatic about which side of the anchor the knot is on.

Regarding the name

Upon reflection, about 20 years ago (late 80's) there was a big story in the climbing mags regarding the knot. There were claims of this knot being unsafe and the Euro Death Knot name appeared with the explanation why it should not be used. I really don't remember the specifics, I completely forgot about the EDT, until after the "How To" conversation here on SP. I was not using the knot then and don't use it now, so I was not that interested in the debate all those years ago. Maybe there is still someone on SP old enough to remember the story and what it was about.

MoapaPk wrote:Do people still recommend the double fisherman's for ropes of UNequal diameters? EDK seems a lot easier to tie and untie...

I have read that when joining thin tag lines, e.g. 5.5 mm tech cord and a single rope a triple fisherman's knot is recommended. Then again, a triple fisherman's knot is recommended for tying 'slippery' spectra cord when slinging hexes or such.

ExcitableBoy wrote:

MoapaPk wrote:Do people still recommend the double fisherman's for ropes of UNequal diameters? EDK seems a lot easier to tie and untie...

I have read that when joining thin tag lines, e.g. 5.5 mm tech cord and a single rope a triple fisherman's knot is recommended. Then again, a triple fisherman's knot is recommended for tying 'slippery' spectra cord when slinging hexes or such.

I normally tie one more overhand on each end of a "double fisherman's." I'm curious if a double EDK is reasonable for a tag line (7mm) and a 9mm, both nylon-sheathed. It sure seems solid. The tag line is blocked from the rapide by a biner with a 1.5 clove hitch. It doesn't seem like the tag line will ever take much weight unless someone ignores me and puts the tag line through the ATC along with the 9mm.

MoapaPk wrote:I normally tie one more overhand on each end of a "double fisherman's."

Ditto, that's obvious to me.

Alois,

This may help in refreshing your memory.

Good info and history regarding the EDK!

http://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html

As well as this great site:

http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/c ... 9e00a60c7f

Thanks Rick, I don't think either of those articles were the ones I read all those years ago, but that's good info..

Knots used to join ropes for rappel can be classified according to three main criteria:

1. Do the tails leave the knot from the same side (e.g., overhand) or opposite sides (e.g., fisherman's)?
2. Are the strands wrapped individually (e.g., fisherman's) or together (e.g., overhand)?
3. How many wraps? (The overhand has one and the double fisherman has two.)

My favorite knot to join rappel ropes is such that:

1. The tails exit from the same side of the knot. Smaller chance that it gets caught.
2. The strands are wrapped together. Nice, tight package, though it takes a bit more practice to learn.
3. Two wraps. Does not roll and works for ropes of different diameter too.

I posted pictures here on SP several years ago. I believe they are still there.

The other common knots correspond to other combinations and they may have some pros and cons. The simple overhand is... simple, fast to tie, easy to inspect, not bulky, the one with the least chance of getting caught. It's a one-wrap knot, which makes it more prone to rolling than the two-wrap (or three-wrap) knots. The knot proposed by Bachmann is like a double fisherman's (two wraps, strands wrapped individually,) but with the tails leaving from the same side. For rappelling, I see no reason besides habit not to prefer it to the double fisherman's. The overhand with a second, backup knot is classified just like mine, though it is a bit different. It's very easy to learn, though not as neat. Finally, the figure-eight knot is not for joining rappel ropes because it is inferior to the overhand for that application.