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How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby TimB » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:58 pm

There has to be such little solvent in a 'Sharpie' mark around your rope as to be insignificant. Also, that nasty smell from the marker you scent as you use it? It's mostly the carrier solvent from the ink evaporating, which in theory at least,(should) minimize attack on the rope material by the solvent/ink-and even if it didn't a few milligrams of solvent or ink for that matter won't hurt a thing.

I really don't think a guy has much to worry about putting a mark that is a few microns thick, an inch long,around a 10mm diameter rope?
Last edited by TimB on Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby Buz Groshong » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:22 pm

TimB wrote:There has to be such little solvent in a 'Sharpie' mark around your rope as to be insignificant. Also, that nasty smell from the marker you scent as you use it? It's mostly the carrier solvent from the ink evaporating, which in theory at least, minimize attack on the rope material by the solvent/ink-and even if it didn't a few milligrams of solvent or ink for that matter won't hurt a thing.

I really don't think a guy has much to worry about putting a mark that is a few microns thick, an inch long,around a 10mm diameter rope?


It also is only likely to affect the sheath rather than the core, which is what you depend on. But why be so cheap? Why not get the right product for the job?
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby MoapaPk » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:55 pm

Buz Groshong wrote:It also is only likely to affect the sheath rather than the core, which is what you depend on. But why be so cheap? Why not get the right product for the job?


And that product would be?


I think it would be fun to start testing the various other ways to mark the center of the rope, in the same way.

People have been marking ropes with pens for over 40 years. How many reports have you seen that link the breakage to marks (other than, say, sulfuric acid attack)?
(EDIT: credit Chief with this reasoning)
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby TimB » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:53 pm

Buz Groshong wrote:
TimB wrote:There has to be such little solvent in a 'Sharpie' mark around your rope as to be insignificant. Also, that nasty smell from the marker you scent as you use it? It's mostly the carrier solvent from the ink evaporating, which in theory at least, minimize attack on the rope material by the solvent/ink-and even if it didn't a few milligrams of solvent or ink for that matter won't hurt a thing.

I really don't think a guy has much to worry about putting a mark that is a few microns thick, an inch long,around a 10mm diameter rope?


It also is only likely to affect the sheath rather than the core, which is what you depend on. But why be so cheap? Why not get the right product for the job?


No argument there, Buz.
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby AlexRts » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:58 pm

I think the point is that the right product is just about anything that makes a mark.
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby Andrew Rankine » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:11 pm

AlexRts wrote:I think the point is that the right product is just about anything that makes a mark.


+1
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby CClaude » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:54 am

A5RP wrote:
CClaude wrote:The dyes could have an adverse affect on rope strength. Dyes that are phenolic in nature can strongly interact, and disrupt, the hydrogen bonds of nylon ( which gives the nylon its strength). This is how p-cresol (a phenolic solvent) dissolves nylon-6,6. Disruption of hydrogen bonds is how LiCl aid in the dissolution of polyaramides ( Ie:Kevlar) which are a class of aromatic nylons which are more difficult to dissolve then the aliphatic nylons.

Why be hyper-cheap? An "expensive" pen will always be cheaper then a body bag.

And half the MSDS's i go through are the biggest joke.


I have yet to read about or see any incident of complete rope failure in the last oh lets say 30 years of climbing, from an improperly marked rope.

As anything else in this climbing community, we seem to dwell on certain issues yet keep hush hush about those that are in fact killing people.

First ones that come to mind, complacency, over zealousness and total ignorance of the basics.



Just saying.....


Go to the manufacturers specs towards nylon 6,6 which climbing ropes are made of. Check http://www.cable-ties.com/catalog/pdfs/ ... resist.pdf ( if I got the link wrong google Vydyne Nylon Resins. Chemical Resistance. If you note, both sulfuric acid and various phenols, including cresols, will dissolve nylons. Sulfuric acid can also hydrolyze the amide bond in aliphatic amides, but is often used to dissolve them. Unless I know both the solvent and the dye, I'm not risking it.

Disrupt the hydrogen bonds of amides ( nylons) and their mechanical bonds go to hell. My doctorate is in polymers and its what I do for a living, but i'm not so arrogant to think I know how every material is going to affect things. unless I test it, its a best guess. My attitude is i know that pure hexanes and benzene and pure gasoline (octane mixtures) don't affect nylon 6,6, but hell if I am going to be the crash test dummy, only to find out there was trace contaminates that do.

I agree that there are more stupid things to address, like poor judgement in gear placements, how the rope is running in conjunction to ones legs, and a multitude of other driver errors.

I also find it stupid for people to be cheap. Buy a rope marker that the manufacturer has tested, and lasts maybe 5-10 ropes, and costs max, $3-5 a rope. Why be so cheap. Its sort of like people bailing on crappy anchors.

And yes, i understand cost of climbing... I destroy multiple ropes and pieces of gear a year.
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby mrchad9 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:06 am

CClaude wrote:It has been shown in studies with ropes, that certain markers do dramatically decrease the strength of a rope.

Nope. Otherwise we'd have a link to that study.

And why be cheap? It isn't about being cheap... It about not pissing time and money away on something completely useless.

Why be cheap and not put premium grade gasoline in every car you own? Not only is it better for your car, but it makes it drive safer right???

Nope!
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby brenta » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:51 pm

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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby mvs » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:21 pm

That's a pretty dramatic notification, Brenta. That gibes with what a shop owner told me in Chamonix a month ago, after he saw me marking my rope with a marker (yikes...).
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby mrchad9 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:17 pm

I don't see any of the data used in that test. What rope, what marker, how many times was it repeated, etc. Looks like bull to me.

Marking a rope will decrease it 50%??? That's laughable. We might as well toss our knives away and use markers as scissors. I suppose bumping one with your crampon will make it shatter into a million pieces.
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby Buz Groshong » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:20 pm

MoapaPk wrote:
Buz Groshong wrote:It also is only likely to affect the sheath rather than the core, which is what you depend on. But why be so cheap? Why not get the right product for the job?


And that product would be?


"Beal makes a rope marker"

Or maybe use the product recommended by the rope manufacturer.
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby CClaude » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:35 pm

mrchad9 wrote:I don't see any of the data used in that test. What rope, what marker, how many times was it repeated, etc. Looks like bull to me.

Marking a rope will decrease it 50%??? That's laughable. We might as well toss our knives away and use markers as scissors. I suppose bumping one with your crampon will make it shatter into a million pieces.



And what is your expertise to make such a statement?
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby TimB » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:13 pm

CClaude wrote:
mrchad9 wrote:I don't see any of the data used in that test. What rope, what marker, how many times was it repeated, etc. Looks like bull to me.

Marking a rope will decrease it 50%??? That's laughable. We might as well toss our knives away and use markers as scissors. I suppose bumping one with your crampon will make it shatter into a million pieces.



And what is your expertise to make such a statement?


CC,
Can't speak for Chad here, but I think that to say that 50% of a rope's strength is lost by putting a few milligrams of ink seems like a heck of an exaggeration.
Which gets me thinking, I would like to see how much an ink mark with a sharpy would penetrate into a cross-section of a climbing rope?
Probably has been done, but heck, it would give me something to do with some old rope. :D
Now, I am no expert on nylon or rope making, but I do have 20 years experience in the specialty chemical industry(mostly organics) as an engineer, fwiw.
But, as the strength and chemical resistance of nylon has more to do with polymer science(not my field), I am not totally disregarding your opinion, CC.
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Re: How to Mark the Middle of the Rope?

Postby mrchad9 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:32 pm

CClaude wrote:
mrchad9 wrote:I don't see any of the data used in that test. What rope, what marker, how many times was it repeated, etc. Looks like bull to me.

Marking a rope will decrease it 50%??? That's laughable. We might as well toss our knives away and use markers as scissors. I suppose bumping one with your crampon will make it shatter into a million pieces.



And what is your expertise to make such a statement?

I have the ability to think for myself- rather than spew myths with zero data supporting them initiated by someone else. It is a fantastic power. My degree is not needed for this determination.

Do YOU really believe a magic marker cuts a rope's strength by 50%? I wouldn't advertise that. I suppose if you were up on a technical route and someone whipped out that marker you'd think they were trying to assassinate you.

Be serious. Anyone have any accidents that happened because of marked ropes? Any data on the impact of the rope's strength or durability? I asked for that before, and instead folks jump on a letter that is lacking exactly that. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

Sorry to be (only slightly) sarcastic, but that's how laughable this 50% claim is.
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