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Impossible Top Rope

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Postby Guyzo » Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:06 am

Mark Straub wrote: ....... I don't get much better by climbing at the grade I won't fall on. I get better by trying things above my abilities to figure out how to climb them cleanly and efficiently after falling on them.

-Mark


Very true. :)

But, Mark, I was trying to point out the fact that so many people can't do the opening moves, well below what will be found at the dam crux. You have it right when you point out the "cleanly and efficiently" part. That is at the core of hard rockclimbing.
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Postby Andinistaloco » Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:19 am

No, you're not the only person it bothers. I've noticed it too, although the areas where I've noticed it are (thankfully) still few and far between out here. But I've definitely been to crags where folks had 3-4 top ropes on a wall and were flailing up one or two of them and often not even using the other one. Sad state of affairs, I'd agree. I'm not sure what kind of solution is forthcoming, either... hopefully folks will just learn etiquette and manners and whatnot, through experience.

It kind of reminds me - in an odd way - of bar pool etiquette. Almost anyone who goes to bars knows there are certain rules for the pool table... winner stays, challenger pays and racks, etc. But every once in a while someone will show up with their buds, put like $20 worth of quarters on the table, and think they're just going to sit on the table all night. Doesn't happen often, but it does happen. I like to think that the gentle admonition given by some of my friends and I helped wake some of those folks up to etiquette.
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Postby Rocker Paully » Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:55 am

I try to shy away from top roping routes because a lot of time it's hard on the rope and you have to walk around or climb up to the anchors. Plus, the rope also gets in your way. You also don't get any pucker factor and focus from getting run-out when you are TRing cuz you can't get run-out, where's the fun in that??
Falling can be fun at times or at least exhilarating

With TRing, how do you learn how to take falls, place gear and trust gear to catch you? I'm a firm believer that the most important thing for folks learning how to lead trad is to take a fall on a piece of gear. I see a lot of people afraid to lead anything above 5.8 because they don't want to fall on trad gear.
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Postby Mark Straub » Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:01 am

Rocker Paully wrote:I try to shy away from top roping routes because a lot of time it's hard on the rope and you have to walk around or climb up to the anchors. Plus, the rope also gets in your way. You also don't get any pucker factor and focus from getting run-out when you are TRing cuz you can't get run-out, where's the fun in that??
Falling can be fun at times or at least exhilarating

With TRing, how do you learn how to take falls, place gear and trust gear to catch you? I'm a firm believer that the most important thing for folks learning how to lead trad is to take a fall on a piece of gear. I see a lot of people afraid to lead anything above 5.8 because they don't want to fall on trad gear.


I'm afraid to lead anything above 5.7. I'm fairly new, but I don't want to fall on lead. I've heard too many bad stories. I'm not afraid of my gear placements, I'm afraid of hitting a ledge.

-Mark
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Postby Guyzo » Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:50 am

Mark Straub wrote:
Rocker Paully wrote:I try to shy away from top roping routes because a lot of time it's hard on the rope and you have to walk around or climb up to the anchors. Plus, the rope also gets in your way. You also don't get any pucker factor and focus from getting run-out when you are TRing cuz you can't get run-out, where's the fun in that??
Falling can be fun at times or at least exhilarating

With TRing, how do you learn how to take falls, place gear and trust gear to catch you? I'm a firm believer that the most important thing for folks learning how to lead trad is to take a fall on a piece of gear. I see a lot of people afraid to lead anything above 5.8 because they don't want to fall on trad gear.


I'm afraid to lead anything above 5.7. I'm fairly new, but I don't want to fall on lead. I've heard too many bad stories. I'm not afraid of my gear placements, I'm afraid of hitting a ledge.

-Mark


Pretty smart of you. I have been climbing for a long time. I don't think I have fallen on 5.6 ever. If I did I would most likely be dead. It is good to understand that this sport can kill you and learn just what you don't do if you wish to keep climbing.
Place that gear really well and don't fall :wink:
Keep placing good gear .... climb your hardest.. and one day you will take that long flier. :wink:
I bet the climb will be much harder than some 5.8....

I am afraid of ledges too, so my thing is this. the steeper the better... :wink:
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Postby The Chief » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:49 am

I could give a Rat Ass if you TR and YOYO yur ass off.

What does jerk my chain, is the consistent IGNORANCE out there...

DO NOT SET YUR DAMN TR'S THROUGH THE FIXED RAP ANCHORS.


Clip yur own gear into them Hangers and Drift yur asses off of them.

It get's old replacing all them anchors only to have them reduced to shit in one season due to them many ignorant & selfish TR folks out there.
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Postby Guyzo » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:51 am

The Chief wrote:I could give a Rat Ass if you TR and YOYO yur ass off.

What does jerk my chain, is the consistent IGNORANCE out there...

DO NOT SET YUR DAMN TR'S THROUGH THE FIXED RAP ANCHORS.


Clip yur own gear into them Hangers and Drift yur asses off of them.

It get's old replacing all them anchors only to have them reduced to shit in one season due to them many ignorant & selfish TR folks out there.


Can we post a sign?

Maybe right under the "no posing" part.

gk :wink:
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Postby Mark Straub » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:52 am

Guyzo wrote:
Mark Straub wrote:
Rocker Paully wrote:I try to shy away from top roping routes because a lot of time it's hard on the rope and you have to walk around or climb up to the anchors. Plus, the rope also gets in your way. You also don't get any pucker factor and focus from getting run-out when you are TRing cuz you can't get run-out, where's the fun in that??
Falling can be fun at times or at least exhilarating

With TRing, how do you learn how to take falls, place gear and trust gear to catch you? I'm a firm believer that the most important thing for folks learning how to lead trad is to take a fall on a piece of gear. I see a lot of people afraid to lead anything above 5.8 because they don't want to fall on trad gear.


I'm afraid to lead anything above 5.7. I'm fairly new, but I don't want to fall on lead. I've heard too many bad stories. I'm not afraid of my gear placements, I'm afraid of hitting a ledge.

-Mark


Pretty smart of you. I have been climbing for a long time. I don't think I have fallen on 5.6 ever. If I did I would most likely be dead. It is good to understand that this sport can kill you and learn just what you don't do if you wish to keep climbing.
Place that gear really well and don't fall :wink:
Keep placing good gear .... climb your hardest.. and one day you will take that long flier. :wink:
I bet the climb will be much harder than some 5.8....

I am afraid of ledges too, so my thing is this. the steeper the better... :wink:


Exactly! Since I'm not good enough to climb that steep stuff yet, I need to work it on toprope so that I can get the moves down and therefore be secure enough to lead harder, and fall safer. I might practice my first fall on something with a clean runout this weekend at Index, if weather is good.

-Mark
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Postby Sierra Ledge Rat » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:23 am

Sorry, but this thread reminds me of climbers who show up at the start of a climb just as we're roping up, and then ask us to get out of their way so they can climb the same route.

I remember a cold autumn day in Tuolomne Meadows - snows were coming and the road was going to be closed soon. Tuolomne was EMPTY and all the tourists had gone home. I thought we were the only climbers left in the high country. I was halfway up the first pitch on the regular route on Fairview Dome when some other climbers arrived. They demanded that I lower off and get out of the way so they could climb "their" route.

Here in the New River Gorge we get the same crap. There are literally miles of cliffs, but everyone wants to climb along the same 300 yards of cliff under the bridge. And everyone gets their panties into a bunch because "their" route is already taken.

There are miles and miles and miles and miles of cliffs out there. If someone else is already on the route of your choice, then find another route! Doesn't matter if they're top-roping or leading, find another damn route!

I don't buy the pool table analogy. If there are 1,000 empty pool tables and everyone insists on playing on a pool table that's already occupied, too bad! "Proper etiquette" demands that you go find another pool table!
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Postby Guyzo » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:57 pm

Sierra Ledge Rat wrote:Sorry, but this thread reminds me of climbers who show up at the start of a climb just as we're roping up, and then ask us to get out of their way so they can climb the same route.

I remember a cold autumn day in Tuolomne Meadows - snows were coming and the road was going to be closed soon. Tuolomne was EMPTY and all the tourists had gone home. I thought we were the only climbers left in the high country. I was halfway up the first pitch on the regular route on Fairview Dome when some other climbers arrived. They demanded that I lower off and get out of the way so they could climb "their" route.

Here in the New River Gorge we get the same crap. There are literally miles of cliffs, but everyone wants to climb along the same 300 yards of cliff under the bridge. And everyone gets their panties into a bunch because "their" route is already taken.

There are miles and miles and miles and miles of cliffs out there. If someone else is already on the route of your choice, then find another route! Doesn't matter if they're top-roping or leading, find another damn route!

I don't buy the pool table analogy. If there are 1,000 empty pool tables and everyone insists on playing on a pool table that's already occupied, too bad! "Proper etiquette" demands that you go find another pool table!


Rat..... I am sort of confused with your first statement. :?

Your TM story is pretty funny esp the "You come down now, part"..... Did you answer with the "Universal, middle digit, hand sign?"

But what do you think is the proper course of action to take when you show up to do a climb that you are psyched to do and there is a Top Rope rigged up?
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Postby Andinistaloco » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:18 pm

Sierra Ledge Rat wrote:I don't buy the pool table analogy. If there are 1,000 empty pool tables and everyone insists on playing on a pool table that's already occupied, too bad! "Proper etiquette" demands that you go find another pool table!


An analogy doesn't have to be perfect to work; few are perfect. In this case my point was that most climbers understand the etiquette, as do most people who play pool in bars. There are always the few who never heard the unwritten rules or (less frequently, I hope) choose to ignore them.

For myself personally, if an area had the number of cliffs you're talking about, I'd move on. As I would if five pool tables were occupied but four were not. But sometimes an area has only a small number of routes, just as my favorite bar has only three pool tables. In the case that everything's taken, after waiting a while I would then take issue with the folks who are hogging the pool table or have two top ropes they're not using lying across routes.
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Postby Rocker Paully » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:41 pm

Mark Straub wrote:
Guyzo wrote:
Mark Straub wrote:
Rocker Paully wrote:I try to shy away from top roping routes because a lot of time it's hard on the rope and you have to walk around or climb up to the anchors. Plus, the rope also gets in your way. You also don't get any pucker factor and focus from getting run-out when you are TRing cuz you can't get run-out, where's the fun in that??
Falling can be fun at times or at least exhilarating

With TRing, how do you learn how to take falls, place gear and trust gear to catch you? I'm a firm believer that the most important thing for folks learning how to lead trad is to take a fall on a piece of gear. I see a lot of people afraid to lead anything above 5.8 because they don't want to fall on trad gear.


I'm afraid to lead anything above 5.7. I'm fairly new, but I don't want to fall on lead. I've heard too many bad stories. I'm not afraid of my gear placements, I'm afraid of hitting a ledge.

-Mark


Pretty smart of you. I have been climbing for a long time. I don't think I have fallen on 5.6 ever. If I did I would most likely be dead. It is good to understand that this sport can kill you and learn just what you don't do if you wish to keep climbing.
Place that gear really well and don't fall :wink:
Keep placing good gear .... climb your hardest.. and one day you will take that long flier. :wink:
I bet the climb will be much harder than some 5.8....

I am afraid of ledges too, so my thing is this. the steeper the better... :wink:


Exactly! Since I'm not good enough to climb that steep stuff yet, I need to work it on toprope so that I can get the moves down and therefore be secure enough to lead harder, and fall safer. I might practice my first fall on something with a clean runout this weekend at Index, if weather is good.

-Mark


There are trad lines you obviously don't want to fall on, but you can hop on a steep 5.10 jam crack that takes awesome cam placements every 3 feet and then take a fall. Trad gear will catch you if placed correctly!! Just don't lobe out any cams and watch for bad rock. I've had some very marginal pieces catch me before and I've never had a piece pull (except on an Aid lead in dirt) because I don't do free lines that have bad gear that I will likely fall onto.

If you really want to learn how to place trad gear, go do some top roped aiding up some 5.12 cracks.

From my own experience, you get good at rock climbing quickly if you climb above your limit on TR and on sport leads that aren't run-out and you climb trad at just below or at your limit depending on gear placements. I've been seriously rock climbing for 3 years with some climbers who know their stuff and I lead trad 5.11- and sport 5.11+, but I am by no means bragging because 5.11 is a pretty modest climb compared to what guys are putting up these days. My point is that if you want to get better, then climb harder and train harder and find some mentors that will teach you techniques, but if you want to just enjoy easy climbing then go for it, 5.7 can be pretty fun.
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Postby welle » Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:00 pm

A lot of times, harder routes have fixed anchors on top and fewer people on the lines. A lot of sport climbers have no trad gear to build anchors and no eye reading the difficulty of a climb - so they just set their rope wherever it is the most convenient to clip the draws and whatever is available... You can offer them to lead a route and move their rope to a less difficult climb, if they're cool with that.
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Postby fatdad » Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:59 pm

Sierra Ledge Rat wrote:I was halfway up the first pitch on the regular route on Fairview Dome when some other climbers arrived. They demanded that I lower off and get out of the way so they could climb "their" route.


WTF?! I always wonder what goes thru people's heads where they feel they have the right to get off with that kind of entitlement. I think someone as pampered as Paris Hilton would likely be more deferential than those jerks.
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Postby Rocker Paully » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:44 pm

Mark Straub wrote:
Rocker Paully wrote:I try to shy away from top roping routes because a lot of time it's hard on the rope and you have to walk around or climb up to the anchors. Plus, the rope also gets in your way. You also don't get any pucker factor and focus from getting run-out when you are TRing cuz you can't get run-out, where's the fun in that??
Falling can be fun at times or at least exhilarating

With TRing, how do you learn how to take falls, place gear and trust gear to catch you? I'm a firm believer that the most important thing for folks learning how to lead trad is to take a fall on a piece of gear. I see a lot of people afraid to lead anything above 5.8 because they don't want to fall on trad gear.


I'm afraid to lead anything above 5.7. I'm fairly new, but I don't want to fall on lead. I've heard too many bad stories. I'm not afraid of my gear placements, I'm afraid of hitting a ledge.

-Mark


Hey, Mark, I didn't notice your age, you should take it easy with leading until you are older and have taken some classes that will help you understand the physics and dynamics of protection and anchor building. Make sure you have somebody experienced with you. Though I'm only 5 years older than you, I have taken quite a few engineering classes (Kinematics, Statics, Dynamics) and I have a good understanding of forces that can occur in fall and loading situations. It still took me a while to figure out that you can take a 6ft factor 2 fall on a daisy and shock load an anchor and blow the thing or mess yourself up. Looking back on myself at 17, I'd be leery of leading routes too. Make sure you understand the ethics of climbing before you go out on your own and piss off other climbers or damage routes.
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