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is it still climbing if you use a guidebook?

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Postby MarthaP » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:06 pm

STOP MAKING SENSE!!!!!
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Re: is it still climbing if you use a guidebook?

Postby Guyzo » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:19 pm

JHH60 wrote:The thread on using guides made me wonder - if you have a really detailed topo and route beta before you do a route, the kind which shows you where the bolts are, how many cams of which size, etc., are you cheating? Are you ethically obliged to acknowledge that you climbed the route with Supertopo? I know most people now expect to have a very detailed route description for established routes. While it's not exactly like climbing it with a guide, climbing with detailed route beta is a lot easier than doing a first ascent, or even with the beta they were used to in the old days.

E.g., here's the description of the original Keeler Needle route in Steve Roper's "Climbers Guide to the High Sierra" from 1976: "The face of Keeler Needle is rated V, 5.10, A3. The route lies in the obvious crack system just right of the Day-Keeler couloir. Most of the route goes free, and the climb has been done in a day". Compare to 4 pages of route description in McNamara's Supertopo "High Sierra Climbing".


Using a guide is helpcause the guide leads you up the deal. Same as a top rope

doing that takes the adventure out of climbing.

SuperTopo..... is one persons opinion about the climb, the pro, and how to go about skinning the cat. This approach can get one into trouble cause sometimes it's wrong.

You still must do the climb.

I really like Ropers guides and I prefer to use his well written discriptions of roots. He gives the important beta and lets you figure out the rest.

I really love to go to rock climbing places and not use a guide at all. There is nothing quite like not knowing how hard a climb is. Just look at it and climb the sucker, figure the rating later.

Jeff Leberman and I did just this last sunday in the Alabama Hills. We were snowed out of Owens Gorge, I knew of some Brutis of Wyde climbs, put up with south, sunny exposure in mind. We went and climbed these not knowing the grade. Just fun and exciting stuff.

It was very cool to shake hands with Bruce. :wink:
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Postby rpc » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:36 pm

Image

I love guidebooks...new ones, old ones, the minimalist old school ones & the shiny pretty pictured-up ones...for me a guidebook comes first & if it gets my engine going, I make (or try to make) a trip to an area. Great for daydreaming.
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Postby mvs » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:43 pm

rpc wrote:
I love guidebooks...new ones, old ones, the minimalist old school ones & the shiny pretty pictured-up ones...for me a guidebook comes first & if it gets my engine going, I make (or try to make) a trip to an area. Great for daydreaming.


Awesome pic! That's because you live in the PNW, Radek...lots of enforced time for day-dreaming :lol:
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Postby Mountainjeff » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:46 pm

Using a detailed guide book diminishes the climb no more than climbing a bolted route. Is sport climbing really climbing, or is using a rope even true climbing? If you are too much of a "purist" to use a detailed route description, leave the rope at home too.
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Postby rpc » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:48 pm

mvs wrote:
rpc wrote:
I love guidebooks...new ones, old ones, the minimalist old school ones & the shiny pretty pictured-up ones...for me a guidebook comes first & if it gets my engine going, I make (or try to make) a trip to an area. Great for daydreaming.


Awesome pic! That's because you live in the PNW, Radek...lots of enforced time for day-dreaming :lol:


thanks Michael & you're right about the extra rain time to daydream here....while sipping either fine coffee or even finer microbrews :lol:
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Postby ksolem » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:48 pm

Regarding Guyzo's post above...

The equation is simple: the more specific beta one includes in a guidebook, the more mistakes there will be. One persons "orange alien here" is anothers pair of stoppers 10 inches below leaving the cam placement open for the fingers...

I much prefer doing things my own way over relying on a detailed topo full of beta.

I also think that a well organized and well thought out guidebook can really enhance one's experience climbing. To know who did what and when... To be able to know what and where the established climbs are... These things don't take away from one's adventure but rather facilitate it. We do, as climbers, walk in the footsteps - shake hands, as Guy put it - with those who were there ahead of us.

Earlier this summer I saw a couple guys do two badass Needles routes in the same day: Romantic Warrior and Don Juan Wall. They did not have "supertopo" type beta so they were on their own in that sense, but they had info as to approaches and where the routes are, how many pitches, grades, etc.

I think they had a pretty good adventure... 8)
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Postby Guyzo » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:47 pm

Is it a guidebook if its WRONG :?:
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Postby howiemtnguide » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:13 pm

guidebooks = help
help = aid
therefore, guidebooks = aid
and hence, summit post = aid
It has been mathematically proven by transitive properties.

By reflexive properties, climbing = climbing, so nobody can argue against that. As A. Lowe said, "The best climber in the world is the one having the most fun." So stop trying to brag about how you choose to climb and start attacking that inferiority complex with some good old fashioned fun. If using a guidebook or hiring a guide makes it more fun to you, go for it!
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Postby howiemtnguide » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:16 pm

Mountainjeff wrote: Is sport climbing really climbing...


The real question: Is sport climbing really sport??
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Postby ksolem » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:36 pm

howiemtnguide wrote: As A. Lowe said, "The best climber in the world is the one having the most fun."


Yeah, this one is on it's way to being one of the most over used quotes around... But no one wants to consider the fact that Alex Lowe's idea of "fun" was a bit radical.

Did Bachar convert free climbing to aid when he brought in the best shoes anyone had ever worn? I don't think so.

Is a guidebook aid? Take the old guidebook to The Needles, do Romantic Warrior, and tell me the guidebook helped. :wink:

:idea:
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Postby The Chief » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:38 pm

Guide Books are way OVER RATED!

They should be used as a reference "Guide" only.

They are NOT a/the bible.

They are solely opinions of the author.

In many cases, the author climbed less that 25% of the routes within the covers. They have little actual first hand knowledge of the routes.


That is a farse and the reason I say that GB's are to be used as a ref only.
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Postby cp0915 » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:41 pm

The Chief wrote:Guide Books are way OVER RATED!

They should be used as a reference "Guide" only.

They are NOT a/the bible.

They are solely opinions of the author.

In many cases, the author climbed less that 25% of the routes within the covers. They have little actual first hand knowledge of the routes.

That is a farse and the reason I say that GB's are to be used as a ref only.


Pretty broad brush, Chief. Depends on the book, seems.
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Postby The Chief » Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:49 pm

Oh yeah, I totally agree with Kris's comment of "Fun".

This is my idea of fun and doing lots of it, solo. Not too many out their think my idea of fun coincides with theirs.
Image


cp0915...

Did you climb every route that is in your GB?
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