The Chief wrote:
**** ALOIS! Respect goes both ways! You have a beef with anyone (ME) that uses your precious pic's or any beta, w/o your prior permission, please give them the courtesy of a PM first prior to showing your, what ever on the thread.... what a concept! But, that as well is expected.

Gotta love it, I tell ya!

Just for the record, Alois asked me for permission to use a photo, just like other SPers do on occasion, and as some filmmakers, magazine authors, and photojournalists have done on this site and others with my photos. Just because you're not making professional publications with the photos doesn't mean you shouldn't attempt to be professional about using the material. And I appreciate the courtesy.

As for this whole 'recon climb' and adventuring. Sure, I love to occasionally go out and explore and I might pick appealing lines from maps & photos, research them, and try them out. This is much easier when living in a place like, say, Salt Lake City or Bishop, but otherwise it is a pretty large effort if you don't already know about the conditions or are limited in your time to get out or wait for conditions. And sometimes I just want to get out and climb on something more certain - perhaps as practice for those real 'adventure' routes since they involve so much more risk and uncertainty. If I don't want the adventure spoiled, then I don't look it up on SP or ask about it - it's that easy. I don't understand people who spend time posting on this site and then complain about people who 'give too much away'. The less you inform others about your experience, the more you are just bragging. And the more adventure you want in a 'developed' range, the less you should consult others!

IMO, saying that everyone should be held to the standard of 'go out, see for yourself, and just do it' all the time is an elitist attitude of locals and really good climbers who feel that just because they can and want to, everyone else should as well.

PellucidWombat wrote:IMO, saying that everyone should be held to the standard of 'go out, see for yourself, and just do it' all the time is an elitist attitude of locals and really good climbers who feel that just because they can and want to, everyone else should as well.

So please explain to me how all them obscure FA's get accomplished?


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...............


And now if one does not "SPRAY" about all their deeds, they are bragging....

You guys are a trip.

Like I posted, if anyone wants to use my Pics, do so at will.

another thought comes to mind.

Who here would say that Bradford Washburn was a big joy-kill because he saw great potential lines in the plane flights he took over the Alaska Range, noticed potential lines, and advertised the routes to others? Many FAs put up in Alaska were done because Brad shared his local knowledge with climbers who had the interest in heading up there to try it out.

Is David Roberts any less of an adventurer for doing the FA of the direct north face of Denali, or the West Face of Mt Huntington (VI, 5.9, A2, WI3-4, 70o ice and is considered one of the 50 Classic climbs of North America) because Bradford Washburn shared informative photos and pointed out prospective lines that led to these routes being climbed? Perhaps Washburn should have just dangled pretty and mildly informative photos to other climbers and then rag on them to just come up to Alaska and look around to find these potential gems?

A lot of FA lines get climbed because climbers who venture to these regions see the potential, realize that can't have it all for themselves, and eagerly share it with others who would get out and attempt them.

PellucidWombat wrote:A lot of FA lines get climbed because climbers who venture to these regions see the potential, realize that can't have it all for themselves, and eagerly share it with others who would get out and attempt them.

More than you could ever imagine get done and nothing is said about em for many years/decades after. Many more, never get reported at all.

Hell, I have done several lines over the years thinking I had the FA only to find ancient rusted fixed pins etc along the way.

This in fact is a common story throughout the world.

Chief, I guess you need to have it spelled out. It's extremely simple. The next time you want to include my pictures or anything else of mine for spewing garbage on other people, to insult and degrade those on SP who don't agree with you, to beat your chest about your superiority, leave my pictures or anything that has to do with me OUT OF IT. I don't want to be (even remotely) associated with your approach to any of this.

Edit Spelling, what else.

Going back to the original POST, Any rock climb that can be climbed in the summer, can be attempted in winter. The Secor Guidebook has hundreds of pages of such outings. None of us needs to be spoon fed as to where they are. But if you pose the original question, RE. mixed climbs in the Sierra, and maybe even expand on the question a bit, Mixed, meaning requiring two ice tools, crampons, ice screws as well as full rack of rock gear and a rope, we get into entirely different area. There are myriad of ICE climbs that can be done in the Sierra in the winter, but true mixed climbs are rare. They require a combination of steep rock and ice to form. In the Sierra, ice does not form very frequently on a steep, climbable rock. You could spend a lifetime searching (some of us have) to find the next good MIXED climb in the Sierra. So the question remains, where are they? Do you know of any, would you share them with us?

As always, condition dependent...
MEndenhall Couloir, NE Face Laurel Mountain.
E Face, Bear Creek Spire
N Face Mt. Dade
N Face Mt. Abbott
N Face Mt. Russell
Early season in the Parachute, Pyramid PEak (near Mammoth)
Various N Faces, Palisade Crest Region
NE Face Dragtooth
E Couloir Split Mountain
N Face Mt. Mendel
to name a few
Any 4th-5.8 route will be FAR more exciting under winter conditions!!!!!!!!!!! (E Arete Humphreys, Rowell Route Humphreys, N Arete Matterhorn, etc)
Now lets see some TRs!!!!!!!

For years I have lusted after Moonage Daydream -- wonder if it will ever come in again, and if so will I be strong enough to climb it by then

Rob, it does come in, not every year and not fully. You just need to ski in to have a look. Later in the season is better than early.The first pitch, if there is little ice on it, is the crux, about .9. The place is very dangerous after a big dump, the basin above the route slides frequently. A great MIXED climb (if thin). Steve Larson has done it recently (within last few years) so he can offer more info.

Granjero, have you climbed any of those listed in the winter? I ask because I did most of them. Some like BCS, Abbot/Dade, Split, Mendel and Humphreys I visited more than once in the winter and generaly found no ice at all. Most just had a deep snow on ledges and not much ice at all, just very cold (sometimes too cold) rock. Did conditions changed (improved) for ice recently?

Edited for content.

asmrz wrote:Chief, I guess you need to have it spelled out. It's extremely simple. The next time you want to include my pictures or anything else of mine for spewing garbage on other people, to insult and degrade those on SP who don't agree with you, to beat your chest about your superiority, leave my pictures or anything that has to do with me OUT OF IT. I don't want to be (even remotely) associated with your approach to any of this.

Whatta shame.... just thought you wanted to be part of the chest beating, degrading and spewing session. Too bad!

asmrz wrote:Granjero, have you climbed any of those listed in the winter?

I have climbed (and skied or snowboarded) a few, seen some others, and haven't been to a couple in person but was inspired by photos (Russell, Split). I suppose the caveat to my list is that I tend to come across things in later winter/spring when the probability of ice is decreased but the excellence of 'la glisse' is at a maximum. Not to mention that I am by no means a 'real' mixed or ice climber, so I'm just trying to share what I think would be worthy exploratory trips for those so inclined.

There are bits and pieces of ice that I have come across, but under the definition of a true mixed route (like you gave above) it would be hard to really classify any of them as such. Mostly, I see thin snow over rock (plenty exciting in crampons ). Mendenhall had fun mixed conditions; some water ice over rock, some drytooling. I made ski and snowboard descent attempts of the E Face of Bear Creek Spire last year and both times was stymied by melting snow over rock and poor quality ice in chimneys at the upper cliff band. I was solo and only brought one tool (doh!) and it was scary, even trying to find some my way through some pure rock was spooky in snowboard boots and with a big board on my back clanging into everything with the big cliff tier below. Parachute I did a few years ago solo and found snow covered rock in the upper choke sections, and skied down from there (solo again, no rope, death wish level low-moderate for given skill set). Abbott has enticed me and I've skied N Face of Dade, but again, very snowy, not so much ice. Often, it seems that you want to climb on the rocky-snowy terrain, but the punchiness and lack of cohesion dictates otherwise. I almost pitched off the N Face of BCS when I punched through while downclimbing a rocky section with my snowboard

The Rowell Route on Humphreys looks like a very nice candidate, I've skied and snowboarded its N Couloir and I bet under the right conditions the RR would have some ice lingering. Perhaps the climber's right fork of the V-Notch forms ice in proper winter, it was all snow to the chockstone when we skied it and the left fork (powder, nonetheless!!). While skiing the Mt. Williams hanging snowfield (shown in post above with turns near edge), it looked like the N Face of Norman Clyde could have some interesting climbing possibilities. Same for the dragtooth way north, and speaking of that zone, the terrain upcanyon from the Hulk has some cool looking winter features. Mendel I have not climbed, but looked up and went WOW! when I went back to ski Darwin.

So the best I can offer is that our Sierra climate makes conditions highly dependent on shorter term weather patterns. It's not just whether or not something fills in with snow, its more a question of that snow melting and refreezing under acceptable boundary conditions for the formation of good ice. Perhaps a scenario such as warm ambient initial temperatures, a warm and moist moderate to light snowfall followed by a very strong cold front and lingering Great Basin cold pool to freeze everything up during the low sun angle period so that solar insolation doesn't goof things up too much. But after all my days wandering I haven't seen the grand icefall that some here are probably looking for, aka the Sierra version of the North Face of Les Droites or as Chief showed, Grande Jorasses. But don't stop looking!

asmrz wrote:Going back to the original POST, Any rock climb that can be climbed in the summer, can be attempted in winter. The Secor Guidebook has hundreds of pages of such outings. None of us needs to be spoon fed as to where they are. But if you pose the original question, RE. mixed climbs in the Sierra, and maybe even expand on the question a bit, Mixed, meaning requiring two ice tools, crampons, ice screws as well as full rack of rock gear and a rope, we get into entirely different area. There are myriad of ICE climbs that can be done in the Sierra in the winter, but true mixed climbs are rare. They require a combination of steep rock and ice to form. In the Sierra, ice does not form very frequently on a steep, climbable rock. You could spend a lifetime searching (some of us have) to find the next good MIXED climb in the Sierra. So the question remains, where are they? Do you know of any, would you share them with us?

Thanks Asmrz. If I were to expand my question, the above would be it.

Thanks to those that have contributed usable beta and otherwise. I'm giving Cardinal Pinnacle a shot this winter on a trip to Lee Vining.

I had fun on the East Couloir of Basin Mountain in winter. Might not be as technical as you're looking for but bringing skis could make up for it and you get to sleep in a mine shaft.

ClimbandBike wrote:... and you get to sleep in a mine shaft.

Really!?!?!

How was the rock band up top to surpass?

AlpineAffinity wrote:

ClimbandBike wrote:... and you get to sleep in a mine shaft.

Really!?!?!

How was the rock band up top to surpass?

Haha, sleeping in that thing was kinda cool, though a little spooky. Spring 2005 was a big snow year and the shaft opening was partly covered -



Still have a nut I bootied on the route