Next pet peeve - belay technique!!!

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welle

 
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by welle » Fri May 15, 2009 3:54 pm

Dingus Milktoast wrote:I've seen some very experienced climbers giving what I think is very dangerous advice to noobs, about palm up vs palm down brake hand belay techniques. I think there are significant differences between sport belay and trad belay requirements and I think there should be corresponding technique changes to accomodate these differences.

But I don't go around criticizing peoples' techniques out in the field - I would only say something if I thought it was remarkably dangerous (and I noted)
DMT


I see that a lot from experienced alpine climber types who are used to fall forces way lower than lead falls. I've seen them doing pretty crazy stuff, like trimming off the tails on their double fishermans on their prussiks, and tie the prussik so the knot actually sits right in the middle of prussik wraps on the rope right on the point of friction!

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Franky

 
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by Franky » Fri May 15, 2009 5:52 pm

I did a quick search on the forum and couldn't find the requisite thread (flame war) on palm up vs palm down belay technique. So lets hear from the old vets, what do you guys recommend? I've practiced both, but almost always go palm up, which the original poster thinks is bad form, hmmm.

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norco17

 
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by norco17 » Fri May 15, 2009 6:27 pm

RickF wrote: A lot of people think of belaying as a passive, resting activity and a break from climbing. Belaying is work. Sometimes more work than climbing, If you keep your head positioned to see your partner your neck can get stiff, you sometimes have to squint into the sun to keep a bead on your partner. You have to constantly manage the rope to keep in stride with the climber. If the climber is moving fast, your arms can get a good work-out doing coutless reps to keep up. Like a passenger train operator or an airline pilot, the belayer should not engage in gratuitous banter that could distract him/her.


Their have been climbs where I have spent more energy belaying than climbing. Could not agree with you more Rick.

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ShortTimer

 
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by ShortTimer » Fri May 15, 2009 6:49 pm

Franky wrote:I did a quick search on the forum and couldn't find the requisite thread (flame war) on palm up vs palm down belay technique. So lets hear from the old vets, what do you guys recommend? I've practiced both, but almost always go palm up, which the original poster thinks is bad form, hmmm.


Here is the easiest way to tell which is best. Imagine catching a leader that weighs 50 pounds more than you for a 50' fall where you wrap as hard as you can. Did you wrap the rope down and around the back of your hip? If not you are screwed. If you did, then you either had your hand palm down or you couldn't wrap at all and all you could do was pull the rope out to the side. Think about it and make your own decision. Also, consider that you were trying to pull slack in as fast as possible to try to keep your leader off the ground in this fall and as his weight hits you your hand gets sucked into the belay device. Which part of your hand do you want to have hit the device, your now broken little finger or your palm?

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Franky

 
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by Franky » Fri May 15, 2009 7:21 pm

The prospect of having a pinky sucked into the belay device is a concern i have with palm up belaying, although I can't really imagine having my hand so close to the belay device in the event of such a large fall (unless I was texting on my cell phone while belaying) although i guess if the climber took a big fall and was out of sight it might be possible. Has anyone here ever got a pinky mangled? heard of it happening? I'm not sure that I'm convinced that the pinky would get sucked in if it hit the belay device.

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ksolem

 
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by ksolem » Fri May 15, 2009 7:35 pm

Franky wrote:The prospect of having a pinky sucked into the belay device is a concern i have with palm up belaying, although I can't really imagine having my hand so close to the belay device in the event of such a large fall (unless I was texting on my cell phone while belaying) although i guess if the climber took a big fall and was out of sight it might be possible. Has anyone here ever got a pinky mangled? heard of it happening? I'm not sure that I'm convinced that the pinky would get sucked in if it hit the belay device.


If you belay the way many folks do these days: with both hands above the device and the brake hand pinky down, and you have to catch a big fall your little finger might well be pulled into the device.

The other thing is how powerfully you can wrap the rope around your hip for max braking. Try it both ways. Having the thumb side of the brake (wrapping) hand is much stronger.

Ever caught a big climber on a long free fall? You can't just casually hold the rope out to the side and expect the device (unless it's a grigri) to do all the work. You need to get a good wrap around your hip - especially if your belaying on one of those newfangled ultra thin ropes like Shortimer is so fond of... :wink:

edit: I've been using leather fingerless gloves in this scenario for a while. You don't have to fork out the bucks for Metolius one's, just go to the hardware store and pick out some nice one's for about $10, and snip the tips yourself (not too short.)

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ShortTimer

 
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by ShortTimer » Fri May 15, 2009 8:01 pm

I have seen mangled pinkies back when people used figure eights to belay or muntners. I haven't seen one sucked into a belay device myself but I have had my palm sucked into it so I would imagine that your pinky would be raw meat if you are not real lucky when holding a big fall.

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The Chief

 
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by The Chief » Fri May 15, 2009 8:18 pm

Palm Down/Thumb in & closed fist for both Slaving and Rapping.... no difference!

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Alpinisto

 
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by Alpinisto » Fri May 15, 2009 8:35 pm

The Chief wrote:Palm Down/Thumb in & closed fist for both Slaving and Rapping.... no difference!


Yeah, now that you mention it, why would you use a different hand position belaying than you do for rapping?

Does anybody rap palms-up? (Just doesn't seem natural, IMO...)

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fossana

 
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by fossana » Sat May 16, 2009 4:18 am

I pretty much gave up on climbing gyms after taking the requisite TR belay test and having the employee attempt to correct my old school "hand always in the brake position" technique with the more modern "bring your hands together above your belay device to take up the slack" method. I watched someone I used to work with (and also gym trained) belay her boyfriend by holding onto the rope between her middle and ring finger. Let's just say I hope natural selection takes care of passing on those genes.

I may be slack on using ropes, but when I need one I don't tolerate a half-assed belay.

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hellroaring

 
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by hellroaring » Sat May 16, 2009 5:49 am

OK, so at the risk of being laughed at, scorned, or worse, on a public forum (go easy on me Chief), by the kind of people I look up to and admire (bad ass climbers who climb hard) a couple of questions. First of all, I have always considered myself a good competent belayer. I am ALWAYS attentive & ready to react. Belaying is a role and responsibility that I give the serious weight it should have. It blows my mind that people friggin text message and other jerk off things while literally having the life of another person in their hands. BUT here's the thing. I like so many others now-a-days was pretty much gym trained, and reading this post makes me realize that all this time I thought I was being safe but perhaps not! I've always belayed with both hands above the device like I was first taught (ironically at an outdoor climbing class). So are you all saying that you should belay with your brake hand below the device and near your hip? Do you just quickly feed out slack then with your non-brake hand? I'm thinking that I need to retrain myself when climbing outside in non TR situations. Also, when I climb outside it's almost always trad with a partner who (so far) doesn't really fall. We are not super hardmen or anything and only climb moderate/easy stuff where falling (ledges, dikes, etc.) probably isn't such a good idea anyway, even if you are pushing yourself. (Then again, can you really push yourself if you think you can never fall???). My point is, is that I have never caught a long whipper. Is there any safe way I can somehow practice this so I can get the feel of holding a long leader fall?? Thanks for any and all advice.

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brenta

 
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by brenta » Sat May 16, 2009 9:45 am

Alpinisto wrote:Does anybody rap palms-up?

No, unless it's a Dulfersitz.

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The Chief

 
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by The Chief » Sat May 16, 2009 2:05 pm

hellroaring wrote: My point is, is that I have never caught a long whipper. Is there any safe way I can somehow practice this so I can get the feel of holding a long leader fall?? Thanks for any and all advice.


Yeah.. come climb with me. I have a couple routes I want to do this year and I guarantee ya I am definitely gonna get some BIG AIR TIME attempting em. :lol:

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graham

 
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by graham » Sat May 16, 2009 4:48 pm

Mountaineering Freedom of the Hills 7th ed page 160-161 shows a “palms-up” belay hand position similar to this diagram. I suspect a lot of folks have been trained to belay like this.
Image

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mconnell

 
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by mconnell » Sat May 16, 2009 5:17 pm

Alpinisto wrote:Does anybody rap palms-up?


Yup.

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