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Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them all

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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby mvs » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:09 am

Damien Gildea wrote:So a climber is sponsored? So what? Before anyone points the finger of so-called 'ethics' at sponsored climbers they might want to examine a bit more deeply the ethics - real world ethics - of whatever it is they do for a living. People in glass houses etc. Some think climbing should be immune, because it's different, special, unique ......and because they themselves never got sponsored.


Thanks for addressing the point I was trying to make without success!
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby The Chief » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:29 am

mvs wrote:
Damien Gildea wrote:So a climber is sponsored? So what? Before anyone points the finger of so-called 'ethics' at sponsored climbers they might want to examine a bit more deeply the ethics - real world ethics - of whatever it is they do for a living. People in glass houses etc. Some think climbing should be immune, because it's different, special, unique ......and because they themselves never got sponsored.


Thanks for addressing the point I was trying to make without success!


Has absolutely nothing to do with any "ethics".

It was/is totally in favor of the original ideal and the entire concept that the OP mentions. These dudes did what they did to remove themselves from all and any of these types "sponsorship" monetary establishments. Walter Bonatti speaks of these ideals repeatedly in this ever so Classic and my most favorite book:
Image

As did Tom Patey , Joe Brown and Don Whillans here:
ImageImageImage

And Batso here:
Image

Edit: Addition.


These dudes called it the "Essence, Soul & Spirit" of Climbing.
Last edited by The Chief on Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby mvs » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:21 am

The Chief wrote:Has absolutely nothing to do with any "ethics".

It was/is totally contrary to the original ideal and the entire concept that the OP mentions. These dudes did what they did to remove themselves from all and any of these types "sponsorship" monetary establishments. Walter Bonatti speaks of these ideals repeatedly in this ever so Classic and my most favorite book:
...

As did Tom Patey , Joe Brown and Don Whillans here:
...

And Batso here:
...

These dudes called it the "Essence, Soul & Spirit" of Climbing.


Those guys were amazing. And I apologize for any implication that they sought "sponsorship," clearly, they never did.

But they did become heros, and like it or not, it's human nature to try to emulate heros. Like it or not, it's also human nature to cash in on opportunities. Their heroic and occasionally philosophical books were the leading edge of an exposure that ultimately, after mixing in some good old fashioned capitalism and the needs of an increasingly urban population, led to the state we have today, where climbing is "mainstream," and has thereby lost it's countercultural properties.

Chief I think you are right to point back to these books, as they represent the original vision, that should indeed be judged as more significant and worthy of praise than many things we hear about today (retro-bolted live-facebook-updatin'-etc). I just take an issue with a lot of griping about "these kids today" without any sensitivity that the situation grew organically from the previous heroic age.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby mvs » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:32 am

TacoDelRio wrote:...
As far as modern gear making things easier, I just see that as a means to do harder stuff, since know you can do certain things a little easier or this or that. Know what I mean?
...
El Fin


I would agree with that too. Since I moved to Europe, my friends in the states give me a lot of guff about the "emasculating" hut system in the Alps. But I don't use them to make life easier, I use them to increase the total workload on alpine rather than subalpine terrain.

I'm sorry to be all over the map myself, but I can't resist opening a new question. Ancient hardmen get a lot of credit for climbing rock in mountain boots. I sure as hell hate doing that, so I'll offer as much credit as they can carry away! But I just think that was a choice too, one that perplexes me a little bit. I just saw a movie about climbers in the Wilder Kaiser in the 1950s. Back then they wore rubber-soled slippers, much friendlier for rock climbing than boots. The narrator of the film points out that in the late 1960s the style changed to climb the rock in mountain boots, and that's the way it was for 10-15 years. He said it had advantages and disadvantages. IMHO, from a free climbing perspective, the disadvantages overwhelm. Proof that evolution isn't a straight line, I guess.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby mvs » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:16 am

TacoDelRio wrote:
mvs wrote:I would agree with that too. Since I moved to Europe, my friends in the states give me a lot of guff about the "emasculating" hut system in the Alps. But I don't use them to make life easier, I use them to increase the total workload on alpine rather than subalpine terrain.


That's a very good point.

If I were to go to Europe, I'd use a hut the first chance I got. It's part of the experience.


Right! And, depending on the hut, you'll surprise the warden with your weird desire to pay the night before and eat breakfast at 5 am and be gone. I'm usually coming down from the first peak at 9 am when people are getting their boots on. You can rack up massive days above timberline like this...and still enjoy a beer and strumpets! :D
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby AlexeyD » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:50 pm

Hm, so what exactly is this thread about? Is it about whether or not climbers should talk to non-climbers about climbing, whether the spirit and ethic of the climbing community has changed from the 1960s-70s to the present day, and if so which one is better, or whether true climbing requires embracing danger and suffering? I mean, these are all interesting topics, but they are not the same and should be distinguished as such.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby mvs » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:05 pm

AlexeyD wrote:Hm, so what exactly is this thread about? Is it about whether or not climbers should talk to non-climbers about climbing, whether the spirit and ethic of the climbing community has changed from the 1960s-70s to the present day, and if so which one is better, or whether true climbing requires embracing danger and suffering? I mean, these are all interesting topics, but they are not the same and should be distinguished as such.


If anybody strayed from the original, and thought-provoking topic it was me. Sorry, I'll pipe down or start my own little thread with the chatter...
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby CClaude » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:13 pm

I'm with Mr Leghorn. I don't talk about climbing and what I do on the weekend is because it would bore them. In reality most people could really care less. H#!!, I don't even talk about it that much with climbers unless (a) I am looking for a partner and I am looking to convince someone that it would be a cool objective or (b) they ask. Why would anyone care about what I did yesterday/last week or weekend, which is why I rarely post anything on Facebook also. Although I love to ask other people about their recent exploits.

As for bumper stickers, why? No one really cares if I like La Sportiva or Black Diamond or ....... And why would I want to make my car a target for thieves.

Now has the spirit changed? Change is the only constant. People are still out there looking for adventure in their own way. Look at Alex Honnold, he is trying to define what the experience in new ways. And between Alex and the kid at the gym just starting out is a huge continuum of shades of grey. And I wouldn't belittle the kid at the gym, since I and others I know, have taken some out here and there, taught them to place gear, and they are quickly trying local testpieces. Some of them have the thirst, they just need the opportunity.

As the original postings complaint about the kid withthe climbing poster or calander....Now in my office I do have a picture of the Grand Tetons (Ansel Adams Grand Teton with the Snake River shot) a couple pictures of the Bugaboo's and Nepal and a couple of John Burcham's pictures of Lifeline that didn't make it into the Alpinist. Thats just for personal reasons, since it keeps me in a relaxed zone. As for counter-cultural or mainstream..... who gives a rats-#$$. Its a life, not a lifestyle.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby SoCalHiker » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:10 pm

TacoDelRio wrote:At the end of the day though, the car is parked outside and I'm trying to fall asleep with the same problems on my mind as anyone else. "At the end of the game, the king and the pawn go back in the same box".


Couldn't agree more... nicely said
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby AlexeyD » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:13 pm

mvs wrote:
AlexeyD wrote:Hm, so what exactly is this thread about? Is it about whether or not climbers should talk to non-climbers about climbing, whether the spirit and ethic of the climbing community has changed from the 1960s-70s to the present day, and if so which one is better, or whether true climbing requires embracing danger and suffering? I mean, these are all interesting topics, but they are not the same and should be distinguished as such.


If anybody strayed from the original, and thought-provoking topic it was me. Sorry, I'll pipe down or start my own little thread with the chatter...


LOL - I think the original thought-provoking topic tries to address all of these
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby SoCalHiker » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:16 pm

TacoDelRio wrote:If I were to go to Europe, I'd use a hut the first chance I got. It's part of the experience.


mvs wrote:Right! And, depending on the hut, you'll surprise the warden with your weird desire to pay the night before and eat breakfast at 5 am and be gone. I'm usually coming down from the first peak at 9 am when people are getting their boots on. You can rack up massive days above timberline like this...and still enjoy a beer and strumpets! :D


I would not want to have missed one single night I slept in one of those huts or desperately trying to sleep in excitement of the day to come. I got to know a lot of keepers over my years stomping all over the alps who shared their views of the mountains. Great experience.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby The Chief » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:51 pm

It is obvious that many are missing the OP's point.

Since the mid 60's early 70's, when "rock climbing" per se was just getting started here in the US, the commercialized climbing industry was small and very selected. The hardcore individuals that the OP speaks of here in Cali, (The Stonemasters etc) didn't have jobs or lived separate lives along with their climbing. Climbing was their entire life. They ate, drank, slept and breathed climbing. They did all they could to live quiet lives amongst the hussel bussel of society around them. They chose to be very selective of those they allowed into their tight small "clique". They swore to secrecy many of if not most of their accomplishments. They swore amongst themselves to remain seclusive and wanted no identification with any of the "weak" outside urbanized world.

As I posted in the reads above, those individuals basically sought the same ideal in their climbing.

What I see the OP stating, is, for the most part, this once very seclusive 24/7 soul searching ideal that was lived by a very select few, has evolved over the decades into a part-time "week end recreational" life for many. Thus becoming just another form of get away recreational industry as fishing, golf, bowling etc.

The same goes for many hardcore old time surfers. They see what was once a very deep spirited life, grow into a commercialized multi-billion dollar a year global industry. Totally destroying the original concept of what was once considered the purest form of becoming one with nature etc.
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