Welcome to SP!  -
Areas & RangesMountains & RocksRoutesImagesArticlesTrip ReportsGearOtherPeoplePlans & PartnersWhat's NewForum

Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them all

Post general questions and discuss issues related to climbing.
 

Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby The Chief » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:51 pm

AlexeyD wrote:Gentlemen...now this discussion is getting silly. Being an asshole doesn't make you a better or worse climber, and neither does being a good climber make you any more or less of an asshole. Can we just leave it at that?


You still don't get it. Has absolutely nothing to do with being an asshole or a good/bad climber etc.

Has everything to do with the misperceptions that are imposed on certain people (and their ideals) by the masses, IMO.

Again, this is exactly what I believe the OPer was referring to. The OPer never once stated that it was the "right" thing to do.... never. He was just injecting his observations and opinions. Nothing more nothing less.

Steve1215 wrote:----

My own generation of California rock climbers (1974-1984) had a habit of not speaking to non-climbers about climbing. Maybe this was pure snobbery. Maybe it was not.

If some chubby co-worker non-climber could not appreciate the finer points of climbing and the glorious mountains…then what’s the point of talking to him about climbing?

My generation of climbers was a quiet and more judgmental generation. I’m talking about dedicated, committed individuals who were serious or pretty darn serious about climbing. The crags gave us something special that was intense and very personal.

Today’s generation of climbers seems different, more ordinary, like climbing to a lot of them is just another outdoor “recreation.” They walk down the street in climbing clothes and they paste climbing bumper stickers on their cars. Surely you know those people are climbers then! If they wear tech clothes to work and display climbing bumper stickers!

In professional settings I’ve run across younger people who have “climbing calendars” up on their walls, and they blab to their baffled co-workers about sport routes or snow slogs they’ve done. I’ve listened a few times, but I never tell them that I once was a pretty serious climber. These climbers seem so “mainstream,” whereas my generation was quite a bit more “counter-culture.”

Though I was thin, a few non-climbers noticed that I had these freakishly developed forearm and calf muscles. I did tell them that I developed those muscles from climbing or training for climbs. That’s the only way most people ever found out I was a climber!

I guess I was too egotistical about my little climbing accomplishments and the risks I took to share my personal climbing stories with ignorant and chubby non-climbers. They would never understand, anyway.

Anyone else feel the same way?




``steve1215


---


Fletch wrote:Ok, so what you are saying is that society imposed these 'expectations' on him to be a nice person, and he got butthurt that someone/thing was telling him to be nice, so he said, "fuck it, im going to be an asshole and go live in the woods." Good for him. He really showed us!

And you admire/worship this guy?


He didn't show anyone anything other than what they wanted to see.

Admired him? Nothing of the sort. It goes far deeper than that. I respected him because I understood him for what he truly was. Not what society claimed that he was or wasn't.
Last edited by The Chief on Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Chief

 
Thanked: time in post

Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby SoCalHiker » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:55 pm

The Chief wrote:Whether you or anyone else accepts or ordains this philosophy, is/was not important. They got it and that is all that mattered.


And why do you think that philosophy is the one to strive for
User Avatar
SoCalHiker

 
Posts: 713
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:12 pm
Location: Los Angeles, California, United States
Thanked: 147 times in 88 posts

Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby SoCalHiker » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:59 pm

yet another viewpoint....

is it possible that those people knew they were a**holes, seen as such from others, and therefore chose a lifestyle away from the "masses" because they could not stand to be confronted with their own personality all the time.
User Avatar
SoCalHiker

 
Posts: 713
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:12 pm
Location: Los Angeles, California, United States
Thanked: 147 times in 88 posts

Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby jesu, joy of man's desiring » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:05 pm

------

Seems to be some confusion about what I meant in my original post. I wrote it fast and used a few generalities, of course.

What I meant is this:

Old school climbers tended to not speak to non-climbers about climbing, mainly because climbing (back then) was (at times) a more complicated and risky affair, and it is difficult and illogical to try and communicate these subtle nuances to non-climbers. Snobbery and elitism may have nothing to do with this. It was also considered better “style” to simply keep your mouth shut, more or less, about the hardships in climbing.

I expressed dismay about the modern climbing scene, using some loose generalities. Nothing stays static, and climbing became big business, abetted by technology and the convenience and safety of sport climbing—which quickly attracted “the masses” into the sport. When you have more people in the sport, odds are that a greater percent (than before) will be flakes and goofballs; but that’s not to say that a percent will also be great climbers and “pure adventure climbers.” It was members of my old school generation, after all, that quickly accepted the new technologies and also promoted the sport climbing revolution, which to me devalued the true spirit of climbing (though I have done a few 5.10-5.12 sport routes myself.)


I think my post was mostly out of nostalgia for my youth, and a period in climbing that was very pure and adventurous, imo. I had the privilege of rubbing shoulders with some of the legendary SoCal elite, sitting around campfires at night and hearing their great tales, and even doing a few routes with them (at times just belaying.) John Yablonski once gave me an unforgettable tour of some of his Stoney Point boulder problems; he gave me much successful beta. A very cool (and modest) dude! Anyway, these people and their untouchable climbing standards were an inspiration that’s lasted a lifetime. In their own way, they were very humble and spiritual people. Very special people, indeed.




p.s. Taco del Rio…I liked all the things you said here! After my son goes off to UCLA, I’ll maybe return to Strawberry’s wild-ass North Face. I’ll contact you when the time comes; maybe not for a couple years, sorry! I kinda lost interest after the fires and closures, access issues, assorted controversies, etc. The first thirty feet of that route is something I would want to lead only about once every 4 years: very steep, unprotected 5.8, loose and dirty, 8 hours from the nearest hospital. Some great rock, higher up.


best of luck,
steve



---

--

----
User Avatar
jesu, joy of man's desiring

 
Posts: 678
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:54 pm
Thanked: 441 times in 328 posts

Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby The Chief » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:08 pm

SoCalHiker wrote:
The Chief wrote:Whether you or anyone else accepts or ordains this philosophy, is/was not important. They got it and that is all that mattered.


And why do you think that philosophy is the one to strive for


It is individualism at it's best.

Influencing others to strive for this lifestyle, not at all. These individuals never even considered that aspect within their lives. They just lived it.

Just as Picasso, Di Vinci, Einstein and many other individualist throughout human history never contemplated what others thought of them and their passion. They just focused 100% in the direction they chose to then did it. That is the beauty of it. Whether one agrees or disagrees with it, matters not a thing.

"Confronted with their own personality"? They cared less. Their passion, vision and focus did not care nor include whether or not they met other peoples certain standards or criteria. They just did what their hearts and gifted abilities allowed them to.

Yabo certainly brings back some very fond memories of this intense spiritual focus. As did JB the last 5 or 6 years that he walked/climbed this planet.
The Chief

 
Thanked: time in post

Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby SoCalHiker » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:18 pm

The Chief wrote:
SoCalHiker wrote:
The Chief wrote:Whether you or anyone else accepts or ordains this philosophy, is/was not important. They got it and that is all that mattered.


And why do you think that philosophy is the one to strive for


It is individualism at it's best.

Influencing others to strive for this lifestyle, not at all. These individuals never even considered that aspect within their lives. They just lived it.

Just as Picasso, Di Vinci, Einstein and many other individualist throughout human history never contemplated what others thought of them and their passion. They just focused 100% in the direction they chose to then did it. That is the beauty of it. Whether one agrees or disagrees with it, matters not a thing.

"Confronted with their own personality"? They cared less. Their passion, vision and focus did not care nor include whether or not they met other peoples certain standards or criteria. They just did what their hearts and gifted abilities allowed them to.

Yabo certainly brings back some very fond memories of this intense spiritual focus. As did JB the last 5 or 6 years that he walked/climbed this planet.


But we here talk about them, we here express our opinion about them.. I understand that they did not care of how others seem them and they have the right not to care of course. But we here talk about of how we see them...

Would I like to be able to climb like them..... of course

Would I like to be an asshole.... of course not.... and not because I don't want others to see me that way ( I couldn't care less either)... no it's because I don't want to see myself as one
User Avatar
SoCalHiker

 
Posts: 713
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:12 pm
Location: Los Angeles, California, United States
Thanked: 147 times in 88 posts

Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby The Chief » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:26 pm

I would never want to climb like them or anyone else for that matter. I only want to climb how I climb and why I chose to do so.

Something that these few certain individuals in the past infused into their climbing. They set their own standards of climbing. That is what made them special, regardless if they were or were not, "assholes", IMO.

Something to consider, climbing is truly and individualistic endeavor. It has nothing to do with any definition of a sport. Nothing. Like an artist creates a painting or a sculpture, a climber creates a work of themselves through a route that they set upon and complete. No sport entailed there. Rather creativity of ones inner most spirit.
Last edited by The Chief on Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Chief

 
Thanked: time in post

Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby iHartMK » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:28 pm

you sound like a real douche bag to me! sorry, if this offends you... but you put yourself out there.
I don't rock climb. my self diagnosed A.D.D. doesn't allow me to spend too much time in one spot or on one mountain. therefore I'm a backpacker, on and off trail and up to the top of mountains and peaks via class 2-4 routes. I spend a lot of time up in Sequoia & Kings Canyon Natl. Parks (30 miles from my house) and go right by some hidden big walls and beautiful boulders. I often think that it would be cool to see the view from up there, but I cannot control my wanderlust and keep moving. so it's people like you that make me happy I'm not a rock climber. I would never want to be associated with that type of elitism.
you give rock climbers a bad name and the sport a black eye...
User Avatar
iHartMK

 
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:48 pm
Location: Visalia, California
Thanked: 4 times in 3 posts

The following user would like to thank iHartMK for this post
lcarreau

Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby rhyang » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:33 pm

SoCalHiker wrote:
The Chief wrote:Really? You certainly never had the opportunity to meet this dude at the crag. Probably the best "Rock Climber" to have ever walked this planet and will remain in the history journals as such. But, in reality, to most that met him once at any crag he was working on, he was certainly the most arrogant, self-centered and insulting/condescending dude that they ever met. Only those that really knew him, knew different....Image


Chief, I think there exactly lies another problem in our culture/society that bothers me a lot. No doubt I can respect and admire such a person for his climbing skills. That however does not give him the right to be an asshole to others. He can of course do whatever he wants but others will see him as such. You have to be able to differentiate between his enormous skills as a climber and his shitty personality. You can admire him for the first thing, but you should disrepect him for the other. Being good at something does not give you the right to act like an asshole.

Btw, that same attitude underlies the celebrity worship in this country. People admire somebody for his talents (acting, sport, ...) and start idolizing him/her even though he/she might be the worst person.


I believe that picture is of John Bachar. He broke his neck in a car accident about a year before me. I am a nobody, and yet he sent me a card and a grip trainer and numerous training / recovery tips. I regret that I never had the opportunity to meet him personally before his death in 2009. I've read that he mellowed considerably with age.
Taaaake !
User Avatar
rhyang

 
Posts: 8963
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: San Jose, California, United States
Thanked: 58 times in 37 posts

Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby The Chief » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:41 pm

iHartMK wrote:you sound like a real douche bag to me! sorry, if this offends you... but you put yourself out there.
I don't rock climb. my self diagnosed A.D.D. doesn't allow me to spend too much time in one spot or on one mountain. therefore I'm a backpacker, on and off trail and up to the top of mountains and peaks via class 2-4 routes. I spend a lot of time up in Sequoia & Kings Canyon Natl. Parks (30 miles from my house) and go right by some hidden big walls and beautiful boulders. I often think that it would be cool to see the view from up there, but I cannot control my wanderlust and keep moving. so it's people like you that make me happy I'm not a rock climber. I would never want to be associated with that type of elitism.
you give rock climbers a bad name and the sport a black eye...


A perfect example of the misperception of an ideal that I speak of. This is not meant one iota as an insult to your post either.

"I believe that picture is of John Bachar. He broke his neck in a car accident about a year before me. I am a nobody, and yet he sent me a card and a grip trainer and numerous training / recovery tips. I regret that I never had the opportunity to meet him personally before his death in 2009. I've read that he mellowed considerably with age."


It wasn't with age. Rather with his acceptance of his true mortality after his car accident that you speak of Rob, in which his business partner, tragically died. That incident was the life changing impact he may have needed in order for him to seriously re-evaluate how he acted towards others and how he saw himself in the reality of it all.
The Chief

 
Thanked: time in post

Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby CClaude » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:06 pm

Steve1215 wrote:------

Seems to be some confusion about what I meant in my original post. I wrote it fast and used a few generalities, of course.

I expressed dismay about the modern climbing scene, using some loose generalities. Nothing stays static, and climbing became big business, abetted by technology and the convenience and safety of sport climbing—which quickly attracted “the masses” into the sport. When you have more people in the sport, odds are that a greater percent (than before) will be flakes and goofballs; but that’s not to say that a percent will also be great climbers and “pure adventure climbers.” It was members of my old school generation, after all, that quickly accepted the new technologies and also promoted the sport climbing revolution, which to me devalued the true spirit of climbing (though I have done a few 5.10-5.12 sport routes myself.)


I think my post was mostly out of nostalgia for my youth, and a period in climbing that was very pure and adventurous, imo.


----


But technology has only changed how the adventure is expressed but not adventure. Case in point is when I belayed Mike Sokoloff (both of us self-proclaimed weekend warriors) when he bypassed the bolts on the crux pitch of Shangri-la in Sedona (nothing big in the big picture of things since its only a .12d 5 pitch route) he did so because the Black Diamond C3's made it possible with their very narrow head. Was it adventurous.... we had no clue if the sizes 000 to 0 would hold in the sandstone (and since he didn't fall we still don't know but I'll tell you later this year). In the bigger picture of things, people are still finding that adventure. Alex Honnold's free solo of Moonlight Buttress is a monumental example of that as is Reardon's solo of Romantic Warrior.

As for nostalgic..... snap out of it man. You are what, 5 years older then I am. Go get some. You are still plenty young (assuming some injury hasn't taken you out of the game).
Last edited by CClaude on Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User Avatar
CClaude

 
Posts: 1550
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:37 am
Location: Flagstaff, Arizona, United States
Thanked: 67 times in 40 posts

Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby rhyang » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:09 pm

The Chief wrote:
rhyang wrote:I believe that picture is of John Bachar. He broke his neck in a car accident about a year before me. I am a nobody, and yet he sent me a card and a grip trainer and numerous training / recovery tips. I regret that I never had the opportunity to meet him personally before his death in 2009. I've read that he mellowed considerably with age.


It wasn't with age. Rather with his acceptance of his true mortality after his car accident that you speak of Rob, in which his business partner, tragically died. That incident was the life changing impact he may have needed in order for him to seriously re-evaluate how he acted towards others and how he saw himself in the reality of it all.


You are probably right (I never knew him). I would argue however that these kinds of events are what often mellows people with "age" -- it isn't merely the passage of time. I'd bet this is particularly true for those of us who esteem things like ideals, focus and drive over the opinions of people whom we perceive as not really understanding us, and perhaps have a stubborn streak.
Taaaake !
User Avatar
rhyang

 
Posts: 8963
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: San Jose, California, United States
Thanked: 58 times in 37 posts

Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby The Chief » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:10 pm

Fletch wrote: And Chief, whether you want to admit it or not, you are nice guy... :)


SHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSH! What the fk are you trying to do, ruin my misperceived SP arrogant asshole image???


BTW, it was JB's incredible methodology of mental and physical recuperation & training that has in fact allowed me to come back to a level of climbing performance so that I can climb ice as hard as I did prior to my injury two years ago to the day. I am really looking forward to this spring. Got some pretty adventurous FA plans for the Williamson area.
Last edited by The Chief on Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Chief

 
Thanked: time in post

Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby DanTheMan » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:14 pm

If it was better style to keep your mouth shut, then why are you opening it now to spray about how humble old timers were? Seems to me that it is hypocritical to be brag about humility.

If old timers really did have this quiet humility, then this thread wouldn't exist.
DanTheMan

 
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:24 am
Thanked: 18 times in 7 posts

PreviousNext

Return to General

 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

© 2006-2013 SummitPost.org. All Rights Reserved.