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Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them all

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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby DersuUzala » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:55 pm

Nobody talk to me!!!
You've gotta be crazy to be sane
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby fatdad » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:57 pm

I learned to climb in 1977, so my observations can be summed up as follows:

Back then: not a lot of climbers; counterculture; sport evolved from moutaineering ethic; participants low key about their accomplishments to nonclimbers

Now: lots of climbers; mainstream; sport groomed toward easier, mass consumption; more participants advertise their sport to nonclimber

Those are pretty broad generalizations but I believe they're fairly accurate. Bottom line, back then if you wanted to climb, you had to suck it up and learn to deal with runouts of 1/4" spinners, not using cams, etc. It was harder and scarier and you had to be OK with that.

Now, lots of people who learned in a controlled atmosphere want their outdoor experience to be similar. That means being OK with crowds, toproping and bolting stuff that you lack the physical and mental skills to climb traditionally. That's certainly not everyone, so my apologies in advance to any offended. However, the trend certainly has been toward the lower common denominator.

BTW, it's not elitism. That's code for being weak.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby JasonH » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:58 pm

DersuUzala wrote:Nobody talk to me!!!


Who is Nobody?
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby jesu, joy of man's desiring » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:10 pm

fatdad wrote:I learned to climb in 1977, so my observations can be summed up as follows:

Back then: not a lot of climbers; counterculture; sport evolved from moutaineering ethic; participants low key about their accomplishments to nonclimbers

Now: lots of climbers; mainstream; sport groomed toward easier, mass consumption; more participants advertise their sport to nonclimber

Those are pretty broad generalizations but I believe they're fairly accurate. Bottom line, back then if you wanted to climb, you had to suck it up and learn to deal with runouts of 1/4" spinners, not using cams, etc. It was harder and scarier and you had to be OK with that.

Now, lots of people who learned in a controlled atmosphere want their outdoor experience to be similar. That means being OK with crowds, toproping and bolting stuff that you lack the physical and mental skills to climb traditionally. That's certainly not everyone, so my apologies in advance to any offended. However, the trend certainly has been toward the lower common denominator.

BTW, it's not elitism. That's code for being weak.


Okay. Some readers have been confused by my original post, that's plain to see. Re-read Fatdad's post here a few times.

His observations are more to the POINT.

If you've never led a 5.10 crack in EBs, with hexes and stoppers...this thread ain't gonna make much sense!

--


--
Last edited by jesu, joy of man's desiring on Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby The Chief » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:27 pm

EB's! Lucky dude you were!

Try Chuck Taylors, Forest "T's" and Goldline.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby Sarah Simon » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:31 pm

Summary of OP: If you had the gaul to be born after 1965, you suck.

Feedback: Being young ain't so bad, either.

Cheers,
Sarah
Go climb a mountain
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby Marmaduke » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:49 pm

It's really pretty simple. it has nothing to with climbing or hiking. If you're a great surfer, has nothing to do with surfing either. It comes down to, are you an asshole or a good person. If you blow off people and don't give them the time of day because they either aren't up to your standards within your sport. Or they do not even participate in the sport but they are interested and you blow them off, well, I think you're an asshole. :)
Last edited by Marmaduke on Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby JasonH » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:59 pm

Marmaduke wrote:It's really pretty simple. it has nothing to with climbing or hiking. If you a great surfer, has nothing to do with surfing either. It comes down to, are you an asshole or a good person. If you blow off people and don't give them the time of day because they either aren't up to your standards within your sport. Or they do not even participate in the sport but they are interested and you blow them off, well, I think you're an asshole. :)


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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby mvs » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:09 pm

I was ready to defend the traditional ethic right next to you guys...decry the overuse of bolts, all that stuff. But seems like I'm not old enough to hold those opinions with validity. I had cams right out of the gate. :D Along with Neutrinos, Dyneema and tons of beta on the internet. I am Modern Climber: the weak victim of too many of you oldsters coming up with technological solutions to your problems (which you now claim are dumbing us down). :p

While I'm on my soapbox, I too worry about the commidification of climbing. But I see a direct line from the "pure" old heros to what we have today. Many of them wanted to build their lives around climbing, and for some this meant publicity, books, guiding, highly paid corporate retreat speeches. They were selling the dream of what they were (and are, I don't mean any disrespect), and it's natural for the greater society, starved of adventure as they are, to buy it.

I started climbing sometime after the 1996 Everest tragedy, and admit that it's hard to tell now how much of the impetus came from within me and how much came from listening to the greater society around. Look at David Breashers...nobody can touch his trad hardman credentials...but he made his living by filming and glorifying mountains.

So don't act like this "lowest common denominator" style of climbing just sprang up out of nothing. It's existence is the price we paid so that our heros could continue to climb after everyone else got day jobs. Again, I don't mean that disrespectfully. Climbing is a huge part of my life, and probably wouldn't be if it weren't for these cresting waves of promotion.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby mvs » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:10 pm

JasonH wrote:
Marmaduke wrote:It's really pretty simple. it has nothing to with climbing or hiking. If you a great surfer, has nothing to do with surfing either. It comes down to, are you an asshole or a good person. If you blow off people and don't give them the time of day because they either aren't up to your standards within your sport. Or they do not even participate in the sport but they are interested and you blow them off, well, I think you're an asshole. :)


I refuse to talk to people that sell ice cream.


More for me! :)
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby Marmaduke » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:17 pm

JasonH wrote:I refuse to talk to people that sell ice cream.

That was funny! You're posting though.

mvs wrote:More for me! :)

You got it!
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby willytinawin » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:37 pm

The best climbers I've ever met tended to be humble and approachable. Proud people and bigshots usually tend to repel others, no matter what their profession.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby fatdad » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:57 pm

sarah.simon wrote:Summary of OP: If you had the gaul to be born after 1965, you suck.

Feedback: Being young ain't so bad, either.

Cheers,
Sarah

I don't think that's what he intended, nor did I. I know your response was kind of tongue in cheek, but some are going to interpret it pretty literally.

For the record, Tommy Caldwell, Sonny Trotter, Dean Potter, Steph Davis, Alex Honnold, Stephan Sigrist, Alex Huber, etc., etc., are absolutely AWESOME climbers born well after 1965. However, they embody the tradition of making yourself equal to the climb, not dumbing down the climb so you can preen for your friends, who are all standing around shirtless wearing beanies.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby mvs » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:00 pm

fatdad wrote:...
For the record, Tommy Caldwell, Sonny Trotter, Dean Potter, Steph Davis, Alex Honnold, Stephan Sigrist, Alex Huber, etc., etc., are absolutely AWESOME climbers born well after 1965. However, they embody the tradition of making yourself equal to the climb, not dumbing down the climb so you can preen for your friends, who are all standing around shirtless wearing beanies.


Granted, they are awesome. Amazing climbers. But they support their advancement by selling a lifestyle. Thus increasing the velocity of the dumbing down process you decry. I'm just sayin'.
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