by PellucidWombat » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:51 pm
PellucidWombat wrote:On a serious note, thanks for the measurements, Bob. I think they're useful and anyone with experience will know in what way to view those numbers.
by PellucidWombat » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:48 pm
The Chief wrote:PellucidWombat wrote:I think they're useful and anyone with experience will know in what way to view those numbers.
Please do enlighten us how "those numbers" are to be viewed and utilized.
PellucidWombat wrote:Personally, I think the AI/WI system is BS anyways since it is rated based on steepness, but since characteristics of a route change so much over the season and season to season, I guess it is the only regular way to rate & compare routes.
by asmrz » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:53 pm
by kevin trieu » Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:09 pm
Vitaliy M. wrote:The Chief, is that you in that photo or someone else with a "similar jacket?"
by PellucidWombat » Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:25 pm
The Chief wrote:The bottom line, regardless of "steepness", . . ., many Alpine route ratings are just general guides.
asmrz wrote:On the other hand, most Ice Couloirs in the Sierra, even in full conditions, are climbable by good, experienced weekenders. So maybe we should leave the ratings as they are and enjoy the (re) discovery.
The Chief wrote:which you btw are in fact mistaken that the AI/WI rating are soley "based on steepness"
The Chief wrote:As Alois mentioned, Jeff Lowe first introduced a new rating system for Alpine and Water Ice back in the 70's which he shares in his first book, "The Ice Experience".
by asmrz » Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:36 pm
by PellucidWombat » Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:39 pm
asmrz wrote:The WI (water ice) system posted above has some serious problems vis-avis Sierra Ice Couloirs. Jeff Lowe proposed it mostly for those areas that had WI as Canada, Colorado, Wyoming etc. Eccept for Lee Vining ice and few other places, Sierra couloir ice is AI (ALPINE ICE). Alpine ice forms as a by-product of melting snow, WI forms as frozen water, so WI ratings are not really appropriate, another complication to our conversation on ratings.
asmrz wrote:RJ once told me how hard it was to rate ice in the Sierra, because it can be so variable, even day to day. These days, when people climb the ice couloirs without any ice in them, either because they are unable to climb ice, or the ice does not form due to much warmer conditions, the issue is even more muddled.
by asmrz » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:15 pm
by Vitaliy M. » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:47 pm
asmrz wrote:When RJ Secor was writing his first edition to High Sierra we communicated about a new guide to Sierra Ice. I proposed couple things, but RJ was already under pressure from several groups and people and decided not to tackle it.
I proposed: Based on hard ice conditions:
A. Grade just like YDS, I to VI ie length.
B. Steepest pitch and how sustained the climb is, AI or WI rating.
C.Schrund, Yes or No, how steep
D. Rock rating based on YDS.
E. Objective danger, Y or N, what
G. Any pertinent info (bulges, mixed sections, special gear needed)
I still believe it would be an improvement to the present system. Comments?
Vitaliy M. wrote:. If I know that V notch has a shrund it does not mean that a guy from Kansas that comes here for a week long outing in Palisades knows that. And it may help him plan on getting over one if he starts from Sam Mack...