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Re: Plastic nuts

Postby Alex Wood » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:17 pm

asmrz wrote:myfirceblackhound wrote:

"I'm not saying any of you should go out and immediately buy some but I'm a bit surprised at how closed minded all of you are towards these. I don't see any reason to be scared of them."

Well, maybe we are sceptical about everything that has to do with climbing gear and always have been. You might not ask why, but I will tell you anyway, because climbers are the most sceptical bunch you'll ever meet. Talk is cheap, marketing BS will not do, and when we (collectively) feel that a product works, we defend it. Our life might depend on it.

BTW, what is your level of experience? I looked at your name and you have nothing posted. From what point of view are you talking to us? I would hope that you have technical rock climbing background...


Whether he is credible or not, no one here has actually tested these stoppers. The Chief threw out some numbers on these stoppers vs BD stoppers (props) but the strength ratings aren't enough to make me run for the hills. I use a #1 Blue Metolius TCU ALOT- that is rated to 8kN (none of the gear4rocks stoppers in the Chiefs table are rated below that). Also, he went into the background behind the company and other products but that still doesn't address the functionality of these plastic nuts. Climbers have the right to be skeptic about their gear. It seems like in this discussion that it is not only skepticism at play, but also unwillingness to field the idea that a plastic nut has potential to work.

Then there is the issue with the certs. From the gear4rocks website- The gear4rocks links cams have passed CE certification. We will now be working through the UIAA or CE certification process for our other lines of equipment. As resources and time allows we hope to gain additional certifications for all of our gear. Unfortunately at this time we are unable to determine how long it will be before paperwork & testing processes are complete. Upon completion of CE and UIAA testing, certificates will be issued with the appropriate safety labels and the gear4rocks eBay listings and gear4rocks web site will be updated to reflect the endorsement. In case anybody hasn't checked out their website, here is the link http://shop.gear4rocks.com/en/nuts-stoppers/plastic-nuts-set-of-eight/prod_58.html

So if it is the certs that everyone is worried about, don't buy them- simple solution. Gear4rocks is working towards a cert so it would be interesting to see if they actually become UIAA and CE certified. In the mean time, since people haven't actually played around with these nuts (I think the Chief said that he might have played with them), the only thing that can be said against them is that they aren't certified (which is big and I understand that).

Myfierceblackhound has been making good points (as has everyone). Climbing background would help, but most of these points that he has been making are logical points. If it turns out that he climbs 5.3, the points he made are still logical conclusions.

And I may have missed certain points that have been brought up already, and if so, I apologize
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Re: Plastic nuts

Postby The Chief » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:34 pm

Excellent post Alex and Alois.

As Alois was referring to, skepticism is one important character trait that has most assuredly kept most of us Old Farts alive over the many decades we have been at this very dangerous game.

I know from my many what should have been a "death/grounder fall" experiences (Frolicking in the A4 and A5 world, mostly solo may I add for well over 20 years) I have come to trust (with my life time and time again) the UIAA and CE labs that extensively review the products I have chosen to use for the past 40 something years.

Before I utilize anyone's Pro, (and have done so for over 30 years now), I check into their CE/UIAA testing and Certs to verify that I will not become their Crash Test Dummy and the statistic that verifies their gear is mank and deadly.

I know from past experience that Ukrainian manu'd equipment does not have their products verified through the in depth process of the UIAA/CE labs for a reason. And, it does not cost them all that much to send their product to be tested then cert'd by any of the UIAA authorized labs.

http://theuiaa.org/accredited_laboratories.html

and

http://www.theuiaa.org/standards.html

Bottom line, if anyone here wishes to become the statistic, by all means go ahead. If you live, please let us know. And until these Plastic Nuts are Cert'd via a CE or UIAA authorized lab, no way in hell will this nutcase resort to being the stupid statistic that my Pop reminded me not to become :

"Just cus the neighbors and your friends are doing it, does not necessarily nor always mean it is the right thing nor the safe thing to do. Remember Son, Stupidity will be painful!"


Over and Out.

Edit: Additions to add address for the UIAA Labs/Process Information
Last edited by The Chief on Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Plastic nuts

Postby Vitaliy M. » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:38 pm

I heard of several link cam failures. I have two link cams, but I only use them for anchors these days, or on alpine routes where falls would not be vertical or close to vertical.
Although gear4rocks claim a rating I would not trust my health to plastic nuts before they are approved and certified. Just personal opinion. Even though this company does look legit.

If one is planning to test these I would suggest to back up these with another piece (steel nut or a cam) just bellow for some security.
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Re: Plastic nuts

Postby mrchad9 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:09 am

Well I guess some people in this thread get their posts moderated, while others spew hate and animosity unfettered.

+1 myfierceblackhound.
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Re: Plastic nuts

Postby The Chief » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:12 am

I can verify that you won't be seeing this upstanding Lunatic using them Plastic Nuts any time soon. Nothing but steel, iron and some bits of copper & aluminum on his rack Baby!




I just found this very interesting tid bit of info from the UIAA site and will attempt to find the results:

Plastic chocks
With the advent of commercially available chocks (wedges also known as nuts that are threaded on a wire/cord, used for protection by placing them into cracks in the rock) made of polymer materials, tests will be made in the coming year to determine whether the performance of plastic chocks is detrimentally affected by temperature extremes that may be encountered while climbing. This could lead to a proposal to limit the scope of the chock standard to metal chocks.


http://www.theuiaa.org/news_detail.php?ID=313



Out and In for the cause....
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Re: Plastic nuts

Postby mountainsandsound » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:23 pm

The Chief wrote:I can verify that you won't be seeing this upstanding Lunatic using them Plastic Nuts any time soon. Nothing but steel, iron and some bits of copper & aluminum on his rack Baby!





I love how you can hear him go from fear to euphoria in the same breath.
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Re: Plastic nuts

Postby The Chief » Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:54 pm

It of course is mandatory to break all security rad coms when you post Hound.


BTW: We have yet to see you post any or all of these amazing experiential references you speak of in regards to all the masses worldwide that are climbing and falling on this particular piece of gear???

Please do and enlighten us that are skeptical to say the least.


Also, do us a favor and grow a pair and show us your face. Continuing to hide behind a blank avatar only darkens your chances of pressing your opinion as was noted before on this thread by another well honed hardman skeptic.

Over.
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Re: Plastic nuts

Postby Rob » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:52 pm

I wouldn't buy them, but if someone gave me some, I might try the larger sizes only. They could be useful as a specific tool for aid climbing on sandstone, not that I do that though.

Obviously the idea is to cut weight, but a standard set of Stoppers is pretty manageable already, and bomber, which I can't say about nuts made of plastic, which could deform or slip.

I don't need a bunch of certifications to tell me if a particular idea is good, or if a new product is going to work, I can figure that out for myself, as I have used rocks slung with webbing as chockstones and I have tied off chickenheads, horns, bushes, trees, you name it, I have used it for pro at one time or another, so I ain't scared to try new pro. Chouinard himself probably used to use plain old machine nuts as pro BITD.
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Re: Plastic nuts

Postby asmrz » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:03 pm

So I say to you, go out there, take some whippers on them and report here. As a climber, you surely must know what the issues might be regarding any kind of plastic material used in an active way to safeguard one's life.
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Re: Plastic nuts

Postby The Chief » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:21 pm

Hound:

Still waiting to see ALL these raving reviews and references of the masses worldwide that are utilizing these nuts you keep referring to?

Please post them up, would enjoy reading them.







Had a brief but entertaining discussion just last night with a good buddy which is a local long time hardman who originates his climbing career in SO CO back in the mid 60's (has over 30 ascents of the Big Stone,over 375 FA's, mostly hard aid and 5.10+ old skool trad ascents in CO and SO UT etc), has a Masters in mechanical engineering and has assisted in several different Rock Pro designs over three decades (Aliens), regarding just this piece of gear.

The words outta of his mouth were as follows (paraphrased of course):

"Rick, an avid skateboarder goes through how many sets of polyurethane trucks per year?

Now, I still have all my original <C> stoppers & steel nuts, RP's and HB Brassies that are all over some 30 years old. Still use many to this day along with other nuts and have done so world wide.

Show me how one hardcore skateboarder that rides on a daily and hard basis that still have and use their original trucks that are as old, say 20 something years?

Won't happen."


These words were followed with a long chuckle and then "Plastic....not!"
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Re: Plastic nuts

Postby SeanReedy » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:28 pm

Image

Image

Image

Image

Who wins? You decide.

Which ones will survive to share many more tales?

:wink:
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Re: Plastic nuts

Postby The Chief » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:47 pm

Still no references I see. (There are none Hound!) Just a blank avatar who spends their day walking on the beach and then returns home to spew totally non-supported propaganda on the internet!

Got it.






BTW: There is a basic and valid reason why these skeptical "crusty old men" you so harshly speak of, are still walking this planet after decades of seeing "ground breaking ideas" come and go over the decades and still accomplishing amazing feats in the vertical world.

Interesting note, don't see em, these great plastic nuts, even being considered as an option by these guys. But what do they know.....

EDIT: Late not... just got off the phone with these guys and asked if the great plastic nuts are to be included in this upcoming review. I got an immediate quick laugh then, a "no".
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