As someone who used to run ultra-marathons in the mountains, I call say definitively that endurance training does more than develop cardiovascular fitness. Endurance training also strengthens connective tissues such as bones, ligaments and tendons.

Six minutes of intense workout simply does not strengthen connective tissues like endurance training does.

Sierra Ledge Rat wrote:As someone who used to run ultra-marathons in the mountains, I call say definitively that endurance training does more than develop cardiovascular fitness. Endurance training also strengthens connective tissues such as bones, ligaments and tendons.

Six minutes of intense workout simply does not strengthen connective tissues like endurance training does.

Do you have any comparative studies that you can reference? Or have you ever done a comparison by doing only high intensity workouts for a period of time? High intensity raises human growth hormone levels (especially for us older people) which would enable more rapid repair of large and small connective tissue injuries. Endurance training can easily weaken connective tissue: stress fractures, tendonitis, sprained ligaments, synovitis etc.

I'm not convinced that high intensity workouts alone are as good as traditional lower intensity workouts with or without traditional (less than 100%) intervals, but as far as I can tell there have been very few comparative studies and none for a long duration. I'd be surprised if anyone has ever tried training for endurance events using only high intensity because it would be well outside the traditional norm. (Of course it used to be that long static stretching was the only accepted way to stretch and dynamic and ballistic stretching were considered dangerous. Now dynamic, short duration static, and even ballistic stretching are state-of-the-art.)

foweyman wrote:Do you have any comparative studies that you can reference?

No....

Just years of hanging out with people who ran 30 or 40 miles every Saturday morning in the mountains around Colorado and New Mexico.

The people who had not trained for years and years, and who tried to do too much too fast, were always suffering from muscoloskeletal overuse injuries. The old-timers (some of them 50-60 years old) who had slowly workup up the distance over many years, never seemed to have any trouble. I fall into the former category.

I don't doubt that are many new ways to improve cardiovascular fitness. But if you want to regularly participate in the Hard Rock 100, you've got to put in the miles.....

foweyman wrote: I'd be surprised if anyone has ever tried training for endurance events using only high intensity because it would be well outside the traditional norm.

Check out www.crossfitendurance.com Plenty of athletes follow this. It might not technically be "only" high intensity, but it's pretty darn close.

Sierra Ledge Rat wrote:

foweyman wrote:Do you have any comparative studies that you can reference?

No....

Just years of hanging out with people who ran 30 or 40 miles every Saturday morning in the mountains around Colorado and New Mexico.

The people who had not trained for years and years, and who tried to do too much too fast, were always suffering from muscoloskeletal overuse injuries. The old-timers (some of them 50-60 years old) who had slowly workup up the distance over many years, never seemed to have any trouble. I fall into the former category.

I don't doubt that are many new ways to improve cardiovascular fitness. But if you want to regularly participate in the Hard Rock 100, you've got to put in the miles.....

This doesn't prove much to me. Just that the old timers may be the ones predisposed to running long distances and self selected to keep at it. Doesn't prove that they "built" up over time. I'm not taking one position or another on this, but just pointing out that your argument is flawed (sorry).

bird wrote:

foweyman wrote: I'd be surprised if anyone has ever tried training for endurance events using only high intensity because it would be well outside the traditional norm.

Check out www.crossfitendurance.com Plenty of athletes follow this. It might not technically be "only" high intensity, but it's pretty darn close.

Crossfit seems to use a mix of long distance and traditional interval training but none of it seems to be in the highest intensity category described in the op or in the Tabata study. Even their recommended pace for their "Tabata Workout" is slower than all-out sprinting.

foweyman wrote:

bird wrote:

foweyman wrote: I'd be surprised if anyone has ever tried training for endurance events using only high intensity because it would be well outside the traditional norm.

Check out www.crossfitendurance.com Plenty of athletes follow this. It might not technically be "only" high intensity, but it's pretty darn close.

Crossfit seems to use a mix of long distance and traditional interval training but none of it seems to be in the highest intensity category described in the op or in the Tabata study. Even their recommended pace for their "Tabata Workout" is slower than all-out sprinting.

Not crossfit...crossfitendurance, an offshoot.
Try this. Set the treadmill at 12%. set the pace at 30 seconds (or even a minute) slower than your 5K race pace. Then do 8 sets of 20 seconds on 10 seconds off. If that's not high intensity enough for you, then you are superman.

bird wrote:

foweyman wrote:

bird wrote:

foweyman wrote: I'd be surprised if anyone has ever tried training for endurance events using only high intensity because it would be well outside the traditional norm.

Check out www.crossfitendurance.com Plenty of athletes follow this. It might not technically be "only" high intensity, but it's pretty darn close.

Crossfit seems to use a mix of long distance and traditional interval training but none of it seems to be in the highest intensity category described in the op or in the Tabata study. Even their recommended pace for their "Tabata Workout" is slower than all-out sprinting.

Not crossfit...crossfitendurance, an offshoot.
Try this. Set the treadmill at 12%. set the pace at 30 seconds (or even a minute) slower than your 5K race pace. Then do 8 sets of 20 seconds on 10 seconds off. If that's not high intensity enough for you, then you are superman.

That's only one of the many workouts listed on the CFEndurance page, all the rest are even lower intensity. They recommend a speed 0-30 (not 60) sec less than 5k pace. With only 10 sec. rest between intervals, that is really just about like running a max effort mile with lots of starting and stopping. It would certainly be tiring but would not involve sprinting and would not be high intensity as described in the op.

bird wrote:This doesn't prove much to me. Just that the old timers may be the ones predisposed to running long distances and self selected to keep at it. Doesn't prove that they "built" up over time. I'm not taking one position or another on this, but just pointing out that your argument is flawed (sorry).

No problems, mate, your argument is valid.

foweyman wrote:

bird wrote:

foweyman wrote:

bird wrote:

foweyman wrote: I'd be surprised if anyone has ever tried training for endurance events using only high intensity because it would be well outside the traditional norm.

Check out www.crossfitendurance.com Plenty of athletes follow this. It might not technically be "only" high intensity, but it's pretty darn close.

Crossfit seems to use a mix of long distance and traditional interval training but none of it seems to be in the highest intensity category described in the op or in the Tabata study. Even their recommended pace for their "Tabata Workout" is slower than all-out sprinting.

Not crossfit...crossfitendurance, an offshoot.
Try this. Set the treadmill at 12%. set the pace at 30 seconds (or even a minute) slower than your 5K race pace. Then do 8 sets of 20 seconds on 10 seconds off. If that's not high intensity enough for you, then you are superman.

That's only one of the many workouts listed on the CFEndurance page, all the rest are even lower intensity. They recommend a speed 0-30 (not 60) sec less than 5k pace. With only 10 sec. rest between intervals, that is really just about like running a max effort mile with lots of starting and stopping. It would certainly be tiring but would not involve sprinting and would not be high intensity as described in the op.

You forgot about setting the treadmill at 12% grade. I guarantee that if you try this you see that it is indeed high intensity.
Here's from the site
"3+ Hours After CrossFit Main Site WOD

Choose ONE of the Following Sports:

Swim, Bike, Run, C2

5 Min on, 2:30 Min off, 6 Min on, 3 Min off, 7 Min on.. Done.

All out maximal efforts!"
I think the last sentence makes it clear that it is high intensity.

bird wrote:

foweyman wrote:

bird wrote:

foweyman wrote:

bird wrote:

foweyman wrote: I'd be surprised if anyone has ever tried training for endurance events using only high intensity because it would be well outside the traditional norm.

Check out www.crossfitendurance.com Plenty of athletes follow this. It might not technically be "only" high intensity, but it's pretty darn close.

Crossfit seems to use a mix of long distance and traditional interval training but none of it seems to be in the highest intensity category described in the op or in the Tabata study. Even their recommended pace for their "Tabata Workout" is slower than all-out sprinting.

Not crossfit...crossfitendurance, an offshoot.
Try this. Set the treadmill at 12%. set the pace at 30 seconds (or even a minute) slower than your 5K race pace. Then do 8 sets of 20 seconds on 10 seconds off. If that's not high intensity enough for you, then you are superman.

That's only one of the many workouts listed on the CFEndurance page, all the rest are even lower intensity. They recommend a speed 0-30 (not 60) sec less than 5k pace. With only 10 sec. rest between intervals, that is really just about like running a max effort mile with lots of starting and stopping. It would certainly be tiring but would not involve sprinting and would not be high intensity as described in the op.

You forgot about setting the treadmill at 12% grade. I guarantee that if you try this you see that it is indeed high intensity.
Here's from the site
"3+ Hours After CrossFit Main Site WOD

Choose ONE of the Following Sports:

Swim, Bike, Run, C2

5 Min on, 2:30 Min off, 6 Min on, 3 Min off, 7 Min on.. Done.

All out maximal efforts!"
I think the last sentence makes it clear that it is high intensity.

I didn't forget about the incline, it wasn't necessary to repeat all the details of the workout. I'm not doubting that the workout would be difficult, just that it doesn't meet the high-intensity (only sprinting) criteria as defined in the op. An all out effort does not make it high intensity. Also, back to the original point, since it is only one of many other less intense workouts in the program, the program wouldn't be remotely close to qualifying as a high-intensity-only program for comparative purposes.

The 10 sec. rest is the limiting factor that would make it impossible to do this workout at maximum sprinting speed. Anyone that sprints maximally for 20 seconds will not be able to repeat that performance 10 seconds later. The subsequent ones will be slower and slower. The shorter the rest period between intervals, the more the intensity and speed becomes similar to a single continuous effort, and nobody can maintain a maximum speed for several minutes. The op used a rest of several minutes between sprints in order to maintain the high intensity of the sprints. (One of the reasons sprinters prefer to ease up in heats is because they realize that even 1 or 2 days later they will not be fully recovered).

foweyman wrote:An all out effort does not make it high intensity.

Then what is your definition of "high intensity"?

damn interesting topic, too bad I joined in late.

lots of disagreeable and good points being made.

first, ALL Intervals are not created equal. I'm no expert, just have some knowledge of energy systems:

0-10 s ATP-CP (high power)
2 - 3 min Anaerobic glycolysis (relatively high power)
~ 1 hr? Aerobic metabolism from glycogen (medium)
~ days Aerobic metabolism from fat (low)

If you are doing interval training for longer events, you should at least be touching on or next to the energy pathways you are going to use.

10 second intervals won't do much for multi-hour affairs, simply because there's no oxygen being used. a large part of the ability to perform at high aerobic levels has to do with the muscles' abilities to utilize oxygen.

now, if you exhaust your anaerobic glycolysis pathway? now we're talking.

if you do a 4 minute interval a high intensity, you'll use up anaerobic energy and begin heavily taxing your aerobic system. this may be enough of a stimulant to benefit you at longer events.

But there are other things in play, some I don't really understand. One I have some feeling of is simply pain management. The pain you feel from 4 min intervals is different from a 20 min all out effort, which is different from a 1 hr all out effort, which is different from a 4 hr all out effort....so you want to do some training near the area near the 'race' area simply for that.

Also as others have said, there are loading issues. Training for a marathon on pavement requires you to run and build up long mileages outside. Sure, running just one mile all out will give you a good marathon time - except that you'll probably be limping on mile 16.

NYTimes health section is written by morons. they are an embarrassment.

Very interesting and good to know. I'll have to try and incorporate this somehow when the 1st rolls around and those resolutions start

You know, another thought:


You want the simplest workout that conditions?

Screw intervals. That 5 minutes of exercise that in reality takes longer.

Instead, just run all out for a mile (well warm up first). Done

Not saying it will be the best calorie burner / % fat reducer, but that it will be highly efficient in time spent vs cardiovascular conditioning.

You will tax both anaerobic systems very highly, as well as aerobic glycolysis.

That being said, I love intervals. 30 min of 1 min go, 1 min rest, 6-9 mph at 15% grade. That will keep your heart rate up for the rest of the day! And make people look at you funny when your breathing turns into turbulent wheezing...