Bob Sihler wrote:A good photo on SP should be good because it provides useful information and might, as a bonus, be pleasing to the eye.

Am inclined to agree. My favourite photos of late have those that are of people on a route or rope with a clear impression of what it's like to scale the beast in question. I feel that those that are interested in doing some particular route will always come across the posted useful material in their search, and perhaps others might be motivated to go somewhere because of the less useful but more picturesque scenes that have been posted in addition. While this site may have expanded from its original purpose there is still something here for everyone.

Just to jump into the voting algorithm part of this, my lowest rated picture with a score has votes of 4/10, 5/10 and 7/10 = 12.57%. And it's a useful picture! I used to give things less than 10s but as people have said, the system is whack so I either changed them to 10 or took them off.

I think a major factor in high scores is how active a person is in the voting system. If you vote on a lot of peoples pics for example (assuming you vote 10), when you post yours they will tend to want to return the favor.

I believe in bunnies and flowers and rainbows.

The voting system is weird, I would like to see the guy who designed that, it is a textbook example of programming failing completely to attain what it (hopefully) aimed at. A better system would be one where, say, anything over 5 (increasingly) raised the total rating of the photo, and anything under five decreased the rating similarly. That way you could vote 7 without anybody feeling insulted.

As it is I always vote 10 or abstain. A 10 from me may mean anything from "really outstanding" to "nice photo" or "interesting looking mountain/animal/flower/scene". However, when I see something really outstanding, I generally write a comment saying so.

I really think it should be realized that the system has failed and must be changed, though.

Bob Sihler wrote:... SP is not a photography site ...

You're right, Bob. However, when Backpacker magazine did a survey a couple years back of what people do in the wilderness, photography was right near the top. And, it's obvious many on SP are like me (including yourself, I figure): We enjoy taking nice photos in the backcountry. But, to your point: Maybe we need two votes on pic's (and one may chose to vote on either one or both): 1) Information added to SP's climbing/hiking/etc mission, and 2) Artistic merit. That would certainly be helpful when trying to put together pages on popular areas while researching photos with a particular idea in mind (trying to pretty up the page, or trying to add specific, useful information). Cuss and discuss, folks. --mark d.

Ejnar Fjerdingstad wrote:The voting system is weird, I would like to see the guy who designed that, it is a textbook example of programming failing completely to attain what it (hopefully) aimed at.

Or, even more broadly, a textbook case of engineers/programmers failing to understand how humans interact with one another, and how humans interact with technology, and with the arrogance to believe that they can better manage the world without even speaking to a social scientist.

But I digress.

I agree with Bob, the front page highlights the Photoshop of the Day. But I also agree with Mark that photography is a big draw to the mountains, and it's smart to recognize that. It's part of what makes SP better than the mountain sites without the photography.

Change things?
1. The site owners are not active and won't change it.
2. The 10-or-nothing is not a bad system. It's essentially approval voting. It has some good features and some bad features. So does everything else.

Borut Kantušer wrote:Routes are the main point anyway.

I would say that all of the TYPES of submittals to SP have the potential to be good beta for SOMEBODY. I used SP extensively (not exclusively) last year to plan my once a year big trip to Colorado. I may have started with the Areas & Ranges pages, but I used that beta to continue searching through Mountain and Route pages to further refine my plans. I used the info in many Trip Reports, Albums and Photos as well. Not everything I clicked on was a good submittal; but the good ones I returned to several times in my research - (and hopefully I voted on all of these useful pages - I better go check that!)

I rarely submit Route pages mainly because I rarely go on "new" routes - I guess I'm a follower and not a trail blazer! I primarily submit Trip Reports and Albums, and hopefully include some useful beta besides telling people "what I did on my summer vacation in 400 words or more".

Look at the first page om "Images", look at the current number three, North Ushba. It is the most watched photo. It doesn't give a route, and probably wouldn't help that much if you wanted to climb Ushba, but it is supremely beautiful, well composed, the light just right, the shadow not too deep, the person placed exactly where he should be. It is the kind of photo you can just sit and look at and dream. It is also the photo I would show to somebody who asked me why people climb mountains.

Anyone who is coming to SP for information on a potentially hairy route is going to scan all the photos available for that route; that person may not vote on the photos, but may also print them out to take on a climb. S/he won't care about the balance and composition.

This has turned into a good conversation since this thread resurfaced last night, and many people have made good points.

As I said initially on this thread, I really don't pay much attention to the voting system anymore. It used to really irritate me, but it's not changing and there are better things to worry about. I still roll my eyes when a certain person's caption-less photos appear on the front page from time to time, and there are some people who try to manipulate the system (and succeed, for I "caught" one of these people once though he didn't know it), but life goes on.

What prompted my post last night was actually a post from someone who has more than once seemed to imply that SP is an online art gallery instead of an informative site.

Two other related things: recently, a very nice picture that made POTD and POTW and was a scenic shot from an actual climb received some critical remarks about tilt in the picture. Earlier this year, someone else criticized another beta-oriented POTD because the submitter had not cropped out some tree branches.

So it is this "art critic" mentality on an informative site that got on my nerves a bit last night.

Hey Mister Bob:

That's okay, getting mad over something is good!

On the subject of "Mountain Art," I think THIS is what started the whole shooting match!

isostatic wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca4ju2dpnSQ

Gotta watch out for those stalking dudes.

"I always feel like, somebody's watching me."

First of all, I look for - INFORMATION

Also first of all, I look for - INSPIRATION

That's what I want from SP.

Personally I don't care about photo voting at all. The system in place, as most would acknowledge, is hopelessly broken, full of contradictions, and unlikely to be fixed.

So why get worked up?