Welcome to SP!  -
Areas & RangesMountains & RocksRoutesImagesArticlesTrip ReportsGearOtherPeoplePlans & PartnersWhat's NewForum

What do you expect?

Minimally moderated forum for climbing related hearsay, misinformation, and lies.
 

What do you expect?

Postby Greg Enright » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:28 am

Your big adventure comes to a grinding halt. You busted your leg, or whatever, and you can't move. You need rescue.

So, what do you expect? Does your buddy go get help? Do you whip out your sat phone and call for the next available helicopter? Did you go solo, and crawl out?

It would be interesting to hear what you all think is going to happen next, and how long it's going to take. Rescue response varies around the world, so give you story the local perspective.
User Avatar
Greg Enright

 
Posts: 554
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:16 am
Location: Crowley Lake, California, United States
Thanked: 53 times in 37 posts

Postby The Chief » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:37 am

We DO NOT want to hear my latest very sad and tragic story......

POINT: ALL SAR entities, regardless who they are, should use all and the best assets suited for the situ, which are available to them, with cost NEVER being a factor.
The Chief

 
Thanked: time in post

Postby Greg Enright » Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:05 am

I could not agree more, Rick. However, SAR teams cannot always get the resources they request due to a variety of factors.

Has your recent incident changed the way you travel in the mountains?
User Avatar
Greg Enright

 
Posts: 554
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:16 am
Location: Crowley Lake, California, United States
Thanked: 53 times in 37 posts

Postby Day Hiker » Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:12 am

The potential for the unexpected is why I always bring enough warm clothing to survive the night, even when it is just a dayhike (the only exceptions being shorter hikes). If you have a broken tibia sticking out of your leg, you aren't going anywhere fast. And it would really suck to die of hypothermia just because you had an otherwise non-fatal injury.

Even on something as non-technical and well-populated as the Whitney trail in summer, if you break your leg in late afternoon up above Trail Crest, you're going to be spending the night in 20F with just the clothes you brought. If you are not hiking solo, your partner can provide some clothing. But if you both went up as trail runners, with shorts, a long-sleeve poly shirt, and one water bottle, your partner can offer you the huge, whopping benefit of another long-sleeve poly shirt. If you're trail running solo, it's even worse.

That's why I never understood some of those Whitney trail-runner guys. Is it really legitimate to claim a super-fast time when you didn't have the proper clothing to be self-sufficient in the event of an injury -- or even just some bad weather?

Another thing I think about is Aron Ralston's accident. He spent five nights shivering in that canyon, trying to stay warm by wrapping a climbing rope around himself, if I'm not mistaken. Of course he wound up surviving, but the long cold nights added another element of complete misery to his situation. And the added physical stress on his body only worked to intensify his condition and increase his need for food he did not have. Something as simple and light as a fleece jacket and cap could have made a big difference.
User Avatar
Day Hiker

 
Posts: 3156
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:57 am
Location: Henderson, Nevada, United States
Thanked: 61 times in 43 posts

Postby Guyzo » Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:11 am

Day Hiker wrote:The potential for the unexpected is why I always bring enough warm clothing to survive the night, even when it is just a dayhike (the only exceptions being shorter hikes). If you have a broken tibia sticking out of your leg, you aren't going anywhere fast. And it would really suck to die of hypothermia just because you had an otherwise non-fatal injury.

Even on something as non-technical and well-populated as the Whitney trail in summer, if you break your leg in late afternoon up above Trail Crest, you're going to be spending the night in 20F with just the clothes you brought. If you are not hiking solo, your partner can provide some clothing. But if you both went up as trail runners, with shorts, a long-sleeve poly shirt, and one water bottle, your partner can offer you the huge, whopping benefit of another long-sleeve poly shirt. If you're trail running solo, it's even worse.

That's why I never understood some of those Whitney trail-runner guys. Is it really legitimate to claim a super-fast time when you didn't have the proper clothing to be self-sufficient in the event of an injury -- or even just some bad weather?

Another thing I think about is Aron Ralston's accident. He spent five nights shivering in that canyon, trying to stay warm by wrapping a climbing rope around himself, if I'm not mistaken. Of course he wound up surviving, but the long cold nights added another element of complete misery to his situation. And the added physical stress on his body only worked to intensify his condition and increase his need for food he did not have. Something as simple and light as a fleece jacket and cap could have made a big difference.


So true.
User Avatar
Guyzo

 
Posts: 2567
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 12:11 am
Location: Moorpark, California, United States
Thanked: 24 times in 13 posts

Postby kakakiw » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:52 pm

We had a couple of incidents here in Maine over the summer that tested everyone. The first was 2 women, woefully unprepared were climbing Hamlin Peak (on Katahdin), when the first fell and broke her knee. She had nothing with her. Her friend ran off for help. And got lost. She had nothing. It started raining. The rangers were overtaxed and started recruiting hikers in the area for assistance, even called statewide for help. The first was pulled off the mountain
and her friend was found later.
Another woman had injured her ankle and had called dispatch asking where the nearest medical facility was, dispatch pulled out the stops started calling every department in the county and a rescue was started. By the time all this was going on the local ambulance got to the scene and walked her down. I think she met the whole crew coming up to get her, but she till walked out.
It can really run the gamut, Either there is too much help or too little. It seems Maine always has too much, but it's not always the best trained people that show up.
User Avatar
kakakiw

 
Posts: 926
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:02 pm
Location: On a hill, Maine, United States
Thanked: 116 times in 61 posts

Postby John Duffield » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:16 pm

The Chief wrote:We DO NOT want to hear my latest very sad and tragic story......

POINT: ALL SAR entities, regardless who they are, should use all and the best assets suited for the situ, which are available to them, with cost NEVER being a factor.


That attitude is, unfortunately a major factor in places getting closed, rise in permit fees worldwide etc. It could almost be considered a metaphor for the Presidents health plan.

The people who are in control of a mountain suddenly realize they can't or won't be on the hook for that kind of open ended commitment and try to stem the flow.

The fact is, as a climbing community, we should try to minimize the ocurrence. My guess is, I'm singing to the choir, since many of the people who get into trouble don't frequent a safety concious site such as this.

Also, we should carry insurance. Many operators now carry insurance. We should try to be as responsible for this as we can.
User Avatar
John Duffield

 
Posts: 2436
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:48 pm
Location: New York City, , China
Thanked: 725 times in 403 posts

Postby The Chief » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:58 pm

John Duffield wrote:
The Chief wrote:We DO NOT want to hear my latest very sad and tragic story......

POINT: ALL SAR entities, regardless who they are, should use all and the best assets suited for the situ, which are available to them, with cost NEVER being a factor.


That attitude is, unfortunately a major factor in places getting closed, rise in permit fees worldwide etc. It could almost be considered a metaphor for the Presidents health plan.

The people who are in control of a mountain suddenly realize they can't or won't be on the hook for that kind of open ended commitment and try to stem the flow.

The fact is, as a climbing community, we should try to minimize the ocurrence. My guess is, I'm singing to the choir, since many of the people who get into trouble don't frequent a safety concious site such as this.

Also, we should carry insurance. Many operators now carry insurance. We should try to be as responsible for this as we can.


U. S. Military Assets DO NOT COST LOCAL GOV'T's EXTRA! Most if not all of those ASSETS/RESOURCES are more than qualified to assist in any SAR OP.

FACT!

I know... it was my job for more than 8 years of my Naval Career!
Image
Image
Image

If a SAR Unit out on a call needs the assistance of better capable local and available resource to assist them in their "call out", then, there should be no unit protocol restricting them from doing so.



As a guide, I do not have the choice in the matter of who I take out into the hills. If they in fact fall into dire straights and I need the assistance of the local SAR Unit to evac them and get them to closets med facility asap, I expect that unit to be more than capable of doing so. If they can't, then they should hand over the OP to a unit that can.

That is my point.
Last edited by The Chief on Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Chief

 
Thanked: time in post

Postby Bob Burd » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:01 pm

The Chief wrote:We DO NOT want to hear my latest very sad and tragic story......


Perhaps we don't, but should?
User Avatar
Bob Burd
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 4098
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2001 10:42 pm
Location: San Jose, California, United States
Thanked: 458 times in 237 posts

Postby John Duffield » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:13 pm

Yes, I get this. I was a 91B20 in the Army. I've done a few. Maybe more than a few. That's larger than a UH-1.

I still think people should carry insurance if they expect the $25,000.00 dustoff from somewhere remote.
User Avatar
John Duffield

 
Posts: 2436
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:48 pm
Location: New York City, , China
Thanked: 725 times in 403 posts

Postby The Chief » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:23 pm

Bob Burd wrote:
The Chief wrote:We DO NOT want to hear my latest very sad and tragic story......


Perhaps we don't, but should?


Long story short....

On the way into a Langley this past July, a client of mine collapsed 2.3 miles in of a sudden onset of HAPE!

I immediately began CPR, initiated a SPOT and had contacted the local Sheriff Disp via SAT Phone and requested immediate SAR Assistance for Emergency Evac. I was told that entity was dispatched and in bound 15 minutes after commencing CPR. 1 hour and 38 minutes later and still giving my client CPR, I was informed that a CHP helo would not be available for another 3-4 hours.

I then "Pronounced" my client. Waited for 4.3 hours till the CHP helo showed up to bag and tag him then evac.

Had the local SAR requested the assistance of the readily available NAVY SAR Unit that was already on "Stand By" due to my SPOT Activation, my client may have had a "better" chance. Not likely, but better than what he recieved.

BTW, NO member of the local SAR Unit ever showed up to my pos which was no more that 35 minutes from the main and very accessible T/H.

John Duffield wrote:I still think people should carry insurance if they expect the $25,000.00 dustoff from somewhere remote.


THERE IS NO CHARGE IF NASAR THEN AFRCC dispatches a military unit with an official NASAR TASKING #!

NONE!
The Chief

 
Thanked: time in post

Postby John Duffield » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:28 pm

The NA stands for North America?
User Avatar
John Duffield

 
Posts: 2436
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:48 pm
Location: New York City, , China
Thanked: 725 times in 403 posts

Next

Return to Ethics, Spray, and Slander

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

© 2006-2013 SummitPost.org. All Rights Reserved.