What do you expect?

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jspeigl

 
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by jspeigl » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:48 pm

If we had SAR like the Swiss, I'd get lost just to have one of the those big dogs bring me a cask of brandy.

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The Chief

 
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by The Chief » Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:56 pm

ksolem wrote:Would it be fair to say that what happenned in your Mt Langley scenario was a failure to function of the already existing system? You say the military crew was all spun up and ready to go when they saw your spot, but never got the call from some dispatcher?


Exactly Kris.

I think that Greg can pipe in later and verify that the channels/protocols currently in place have many variables(POC's/C of C) that are confusing at best.

My plan would make it so that any SAR agency that is called out, that does not have their own airborne assets, automatically/immediately gets the closets qualified military vehicle dispatched to assist. This would of course be dispatched via the current AFRCC system that is in place.
Last edited by The Chief on Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Guyzo

 
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by Guyzo » Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:18 pm

Dingus Milktoast wrote:
The Chief wrote:
ksolem wrote:Switzerland is just under 16,000 square miles. One time zone...

California alone is 158000 square miles. The US is 3.79 million square miles. To propose a national SAR along the lines of the Swiss is quite a grand plan. I suspect that if such a design were undertaken, the first thing implemented would be limitations on where one could travel in the wild due to the limits of SAR capability.


Ah Kris, take a look at all the AF, ANG, CG and Naval Air Station locations throughout CA and around the U.S.

Don't need to implement anything. Just do as the Swiss do, use the military as the prime SAR vehicle. They are already in place here in the U.S. and ready to respond. All that may have to be done is add an asset or two here and there. The Bone Yard is the first place to look.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:
Guyzo wrote:I consider having to be rescued as the ultimate humiliation as a climber.


BINGO.

DMT


The Best of the Best have had to have their asses Rescued. In most of those cases, they had no control over their situ (weather. avy's etc) and had they not gotten plucked off/out, they'd be dead! They are all very GRATEFUL that the folks came to save their asses btw.


Don't misunderstand chief... I don't project this onto other climbers, at all.

Avoiding my own sense of failure is a great source of strength when shit hits the fan, which it has for me, several times.

That's all I meant, buddy.

DMT


Im with Dingus.

And Rick, I will be grateful for sure, if the time comes.

I think the whole deal with your last- fatal-deal... was a complete screw up by the authorties.

You did what you had to do, they fumbled the ball.

But back to the OP.

I think it's best to have zero expectations of a rescue, that way, you get prepared to handle anything.

Heck I remember when El Cap climbers would make a "Last will and Testament" before heading out. :wink:

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The Chief

 
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by The Chief » Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:25 pm

Guyzo wrote:I think the whole deal with your last- fatal-deal... was a complete screw up by the authorties.

You did what you had to do, they fumbled the ball.

But back to the OP.

I think it's best to have zero expectations of a rescue, that way, you get prepared to handle anything.

Heck I remember when El Cap climbers would make a "Last will and Testament" before heading out. :wink:


That is why I am doing what I can to better simplify a system that is already in place to make it more efficient for all.

Oh yeah, then along came YOSAR. It was indeed created by those same folks that quickly realized the W & T gig wasn't too good of an idea after all.

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Guyzo

 
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by Guyzo » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:03 pm

The Chief wrote:
Guyzo wrote:I think the whole deal with your last- fatal-deal... was a complete screw up by the authorties.

You did what you had to do, they fumbled the ball.

But back to the OP.

I think it's best to have zero expectations of a rescue, that way, you get prepared to handle anything.

Heck I remember when El Cap climbers would make a "Last will and Testament" before heading out. :wink:


That is why I am doing what I can to better simplify a system that is already in place to make it more efficient for all.

Oh yeah, then along came YOSAR. It was indeed created by those same folks that quickly realized the W & T gig wasn't too good of an idea after all.


I do remember hiking in the snow up to the top of the prow so we could get a line down to some friends who were stuck. We take of our own.

I think the whole concept of the "quick- n- ezy" rescue is flawed and temps folks to take chances, and cut corners.

One should: Suffer some, before that helo shows up, to build some character.

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ksolem

 
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by ksolem » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:36 pm

Lolli wrote:
ksolem wrote:Switzerland is just under 16,000 square miles. One time zone...

California alone is 158000 square miles. The US is 3.79 million square miles. To propose a national SAR along the lines of the Swiss is quite a grand plan. I suspect that if such a design were undertaken, the first thing implemented would be limitations on where one could travel in the wild due to the limits of SAR capability.


But Schweiz doesn't have Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Florida, etc
not much need for a SAR there, is it?


California alone = 10 Switzerlands, the Sierra Nevada Range is larger in area than the Swiss, French and Italian Alps combined.

One stretch of the Sierra extends for 200 miles without being traversed by any road.

I agree with The Chief that we should use our military assets for SAR when needed, so the effort to coodinate these assets with local needs is a start. But the scope of the effort in terms of the areas to be covered cannot be compared to a small country like Switzerland.

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ShortTimer

 
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by ShortTimer » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:36 pm

Lolli wrote:
ksolem wrote:Switzerland is just under 16,000 square miles. One time zone...

California alone is 158000 square miles. The US is 3.79 million square miles. To propose a national SAR along the lines of the Swiss is quite a grand plan. I suspect that if such a design were undertaken, the first thing implemented would be limitations on where one could travel in the wild due to the limits of SAR capability.


But Schweiz doesn't have Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Florida, etc
not much need for a SAR there, is it?


You would die of boredom or the weather in Kansas long before you would get in trouble from the terrain. Missouri has a couple largish rivers to contend with though...

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ksolem

 
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by ksolem » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:39 pm

Ever seen a full blown midwestern tornado :shock: :?:

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ksolem

 
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by ksolem » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:27 pm

Lolli wrote::lol:
Yes, god forbid one studies, adapts, and uses a working system from a smaller country.

:roll:
Somehow it reminds me of a drowned New Orleans and the refusal to use the same kind of system as in the Netherlands...


The entire country of Holland, not just the reclaimed areas totals about 13000 sq miles. Defending the area flooded by Katrina would require building a system covering 3 states, at least 50 - 60000 sq miles.

If we copy the Swiss SAR system, can I keep a machine gun in my home too?

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The Chief

 
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by The Chief » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:58 pm

ksolem wrote:If we copy the Swiss SAR system, can I keep a machine gun in my home too?


Why would you need a machine gun?????

C'mon... please don't start!

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ksolem

 
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by ksolem » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:05 pm

Easy duz it Chief...

This is a spray ethics an slander forum, yes?

I'm just playin'.

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Guyzo

 
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by Guyzo » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:40 pm

The Chief wrote:
ksolem wrote:If we copy the Swiss SAR system, can I keep a machine gun in my home too?


Why would you need a machine gun?????

C'mon... please don't start!


Here is a good reason. The LA uprising back in 93. or 94 I forget.

LAPD basically ran off and hid out in the stations. Leaving the citizens to fend for themselves. for about 3 days.

Now I know a person who saved their business by arming his employees and firing off some bursts from a BAR and a Street Sweeper into the air. This turned the looting and burning mob away from his place and they went to find a better target.

Sort of negates the LAPD’s motto “To Protect and Serve” well at least the protect part.

Folks in some other states own them and I have never ever heard or read a report of crimes being committed by machine gun toting gangs.

I don’t trust our government at all for protection; our civilized society can break down at any second, for many reasons, and protecting you and I is at the bottom of the police priorities list.

I always say: It’s better to own a gun and never need it. Than to need one and not have one.

I know: a typical NRA stance.




8)
Last edited by Guyzo on Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sierra Ledge Rat

 
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by Sierra Ledge Rat » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:55 pm

When I went to do a winter solo of the Leaning Tower in Yosemite, I didn't even tell my family or girlfriend of my plans. No friggin' rescue.

You're on your own. I've crawled out of the wilderness on bloody knees when I fell free-soloing and broke my ankle. No friggin' rescue.

Self-sufficiency is what it's all about.

HOWEVER.... now when I am scuba diving out at sea, I take a personal locator beacon in case the dive charter leaves us behind....

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The Chief

 
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by The Chief » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:58 pm

Sierra Ledge Rat wrote:When I went to do a winter solo of the Leaning Tower in Yosemite, I didn't even tell my family or girlfriend of my plans. No friggin' rescue.

You're on your own. I've crawled out of the wilderness on bloody knees when I fell free-soloing and broke my ankle. No friggin' rescue.

Self-sufficiency is what it's all about.



So, I guess the likes of Harding, Rowell, Will Ox, Middendorf, Tomaz Humar etc., are all weak and pussies!

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ksolem

 
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by ksolem » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:48 am

Lolli wrote:eh... is that latter an argument?

You don't think it would have been worth it? For the people living there, and for the economy? New Orleans was one of the world's largest harbours. Billions was lost in the wake of Katrina.
But, I won't argue with you - if you don't think an entire city like New Orleans is worth saving, then I understand you won't think one single climber is worth saving.


Lolli, Try reading what I wrote. I agreed with my friend The Chief - just pointing out some significant logistical differences.

The remark about machine guns was to make a point. It seems to work well for the Swiss -they don't get invaded, even by the Germans - and they have very low crime.

Regarding Katrina, I have actually studied what happenned there. It is complex and has a long history rooted in local politics. And while New Orleans made the news other important cities in other states like Biloxi Mississippi anf Galveston Texas got ruined also. But it's way off topic. Protecting an area crossing the Gulf shoreline of 3 large states Dutch style could be the biggest engineering project in history. Much better to build smarter locally, and preserve marshlands between the city and the Gulf to absorb flood tides as was the case years ago.

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