fossana wrote:

MoapaPk wrote:

zenalpinist wrote:I'd like to do something sometime that might take place somewhere that isn't where I am presently at. I'm not sure what this will be but I hope that someone might have some leads that might produce some information that would be helpful in this endeavor.

Secor says you just follow the obvious weakness to a ledge system.

It goes at class 5.

What sort of rope will I need for that?

Is it still climbing if I use a guide?

MarthaP wrote:There's yet (again) a thread in the Colorado forum asking which is what, where it is, and how can I do it. It's starting to sound like a broken record - same question, same question, same question.

No research, no intelligent queries, just a general laissez-faire and please tell me what I want to know because I'm too FRIKKIN' lazy to figure it out on my own.

What has happened to us? Have we stopped reading? Do folks no longer take pride in learning on their own? It's not as if the information isn't available - anything anyone needs to know about Colorado peaks is pretty much here in SP. So why bother to file trip reports and post valuable information if it's not going to be accessed? What in the heck is Google about? Is it so tough to punch a few keywords into the search box?

I wrote an online column for a couple of years about ski resorts, first in CA, then when I moved to CO about the resorts here. I covered a lot of material, but it was well-organized, brief, and easy to figure out.

My email address was part of the information and I'd get myriad correspondences asking questions. The most asked question? "Where can I get cheap lift tickets to Vail?"

It was pretty clear that all my research and information was a waste of time. It was clear no one read the posts and, out of sheer laziness, wanted a quick answer without doing their own research. So I quit the newsletter out of frustration.

In my mind if people are too lazy or stupid to research and come up with their own conclusions then I sure as HELL don't want to be out and about with them. If they can't figure things out online, what can I expect from them out in the field?

Research FIRST, then ask INTELLIGENT questions.

Off my soapbox now.

To come to the defense of "kids these days," I think your perspective is skewed. You're not going to hear from the ones that "figure it out on their own," only the ones that are - as you put it - too lazy. This probably gives you the idea that "no one read the posts," when in fact I'd bet a sizeable majority figure things out on their own.

BTW, I also find it frustrating that some people post to the forums asking information that's easily accessible with five minutes and a little effort.

Unless you're going out and doing it Lewis and Clark style heading out there with no maps, no guidebook and really no clue what's awaiting you, you are not "figuring it out on your own." Really, the OP here is just a matter of semantics and style. If I decide that I am going to climb Mountain X and silently buy a guidebook and map and do some research on-line, I am not figuring it out on my own any more than the guy that pops up and asks a question without doing research first, IMO. In both instances, you are relying on information provided to you by other people; it is just two different ways of going about it. I'm kind of a loner and bookish at heart so I probably fit Martha's definition of figuring it out on my own so to speak. More social types just come out and ask the question of total strangers. Neither method is necessarily morally superior.

Now, IMO, it's a lot SMARTER to use materials that you pretty much know are accurate as they are in the form of published materials with peer review, but you cannot hold yourself in higher regard simply because you went with the published dude/dudette over the internet forum wanker.

Here's a real life example concerning some of my highpointing travels. I usually hike solo and am quite happy to do so but when I got into this state highpointing gig several years ago, my Dad was kind of interested so we wound up doing like 17 easyish highpoints together. We are pretty much total opposites. I am quite happy to leave my house and not talk to anyone for a week until I get back. I've done all my research, have my maps and guidebooks and know where I'm going. My Dad, on the other hand, loves talking to people and asks questions that are completely not needed to the point where I have just walked away from the exchange. As one of many examples that pops into my head, we were visiting the lofty highpoint of Iowa a few years back and scouted out a hill about a mile away that seemed about the same height as Hawkeye Point. Being the curious type and wanting some more exercise, I asked my Dad if he wanted to go check it out. So we go walking down a dirt road and talking about whatever. And some question comes up about something ... to be honest I can't even remember what the question was about. I'm figuring, well, it's not important and we can figure it out later. So as we're discussing this, a truck comes down the road and my Dad actually jumps into the middle of the road waving his arms like there's been an accident, stops the dude and asks the question. Of course, the dude knew the answer and by the time they were done talking I was like 200 yards down the road. My Dad pretty much knows this drives me nuts and just had this shit-eating grin when he came back with the answer. Now, I could have eventually figured it out on my own so to speak but he came back with the answer first.

So the next time someone asks some simple mountain question on-line, don't sweat it. It ain't a big deal really. Just someone being social. Think of my Dad.

Many times people can do the research, know all the routes, but locals (whom we have in spades on SP) know something jarring about local conditions. For example, a forest fire may have recently closed off an area (Signal Peak, UT, summer 2005); we may have a very active avalanche season (Charleston NV, 2005); fires and landslides may have wiped out a trail (Porter and Sentinel CA by the east side); a flash flood may have wiped out the road (Troy Peak NV, 2007); cheat grass seed heads require desert gaiters (lots of desert peaks in 2005).

I've encountered a lot of people who want to snowshoe the North Loop Trail to Charleston in winter. Unless you search the forums here, you could do all the research on Charleston, and still get in a dangerous fix (after all, what could be wrong with a class 1 trail?).

MoapaPk wrote:Many times people can do the research, know all the routes, but locals (whom we have in spades on SP) know something jarring about local conditions. For example, a forest fire may have recently closed off an area (Signal Peak, UT, summer 2005); we may have a very active avalanche season (Charleston NV, 2005); fires and landslides may have wiped out a trail (Porter and Sentinel CA by the east side); a flash flood may have wiped out the road (Troy Peak NV, 2007); cheat grass seed heads require desert gaiters (lots of desert peaks in 2005).

I've encountered a lot of people who want to snowshoe the North Loop Trail to Charleston in winter. Unless you search the forums here, you could do all the research on Charleston, and still get in a dangerous fix (after all, what could be wrong with a class 1 trail?).

Good point....

Get my email, Walt(er)?

Google search "14ers near Denver":

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=14er+close+to+Denver&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g-c1

I count, on the first page and a half, reliable information from 14ers.com, 14ers.org, localhikes.com, alanarnette.com, the examiner, even SUMMITPOST has copious previous threads to this effect...

I rest my case.

So I went to 14ers.com, typed Denver into the search, and BAM, there was a thread on mountains near Denver, and the first suggestion was that the questioner go to a library or bookstore.

That's funny, I went to 14ers.com, figuring that they'd have anything and everything you want to know about 14ers organized in some sort of reasonable fashion and, sure enough, there's a drop-down menu that includes a 14ers location map, different groupings of 14ers, route info, what's easy, blah-blah-blah.

I don't hang out at 14ers.com so I'm as new to the website as probably the OP.



PS - Woundedknee, I never brought up the subject of "kids these days." That's your interpretation. I'm referring to an assessment that a large majority of folks in general are lazy. That's not to say that a portion of your assessment is also correct - that a fair number of people actually do research. And an even larger portion likely doesn't hang out on forums but gets the book and hits the trail.

MarthaP wrote:PS - Woundedknee, I never brought up the subject of "kids these days." That's your interpretation. I'm referring to an assessment that a large majority of folks in general are lazy. That's not to say that a portion of your assessment is also correct - that a fair number of people actually do research. And an even larger portion likely doesn't hang out on forums but gets the book and hits the trail.

"Kids these days" was a bit tongue in cheek, but this phrasing "What has happened to us? Have we stopped reading? Do folks no longer take pride in learning on their own?" led me to believe you think people are trending towards laziness. The only argument you'll get from me there is that I think people have always been lazy.

MarthaP wrote:Research FIRST, then ask INTELLIGENT questions.

For the record, I research first, then ask stupid questions.

WoundedKnee wrote:For the record, I research first, then ask stupid questions.

Good one. LOL, and I really mean it.

MarthaP wrote:It was clear no one read the posts and, out of sheer laziness, wanted a quick answer without doing their own research.

Did you ever consider the thought that maybe the posts were poorly written and that is why nobody read them?

fossana wrote:

MoapaPk wrote:

zenalpinist wrote:I'd like to do something sometime that might take place somewhere that isn't where I am presently at. I'm not sure what this will be but I hope that someone might have some leads that might produce some information that would be helpful in this endeavor.

Secor says you just follow the obvious weakness to a ledge system.

It goes at class 5.

But with careful route finding you can keep it at class 4

truchas wrote:

MarthaP wrote:It was clear no one read the posts and, out of sheer laziness, wanted a quick answer without doing their own research.

Did you ever consider the thought that maybe the posts were poorly written and that is why nobody read them?

How does it go: "There are no stupid questions...just stupid people answering them?"