OK, most of my gear is five years or so old, and I am looking to do my patriotic duty and stimulate the economy.

I read a bunch of stuff by Steve House, Andy Kirkpatrick and Kelly Cordes about Pata's system and it seems to make sense. Intended use is Hood, Rainier, etc. I got an R1 Hoody and Houdini and tried them out on a hike last weekend. Temp was around 25F at the start. This combo worked great. So, my first three layers are:

1. capeline Tshirt
2. R1 Hoody
3. Houdini

My question is what for the next layer? I went ahead and got a Nanopuff (highly touted), but I haven't tried it yet. I also have an Arcteryx Gamma MX softshell. Would you recommend the Nanopuff or the Gamma MX for the outer layer? I have an older Marmot primaloft belay parka (lighter than Pata DAS) that I could put on at stops/summit/camp. I'm wondering if it makes sense to wear the Gamma MX over or in place of the Nanopuff; should I carry both?

Thoughts?

Jim Thomas

I have a patagonia ascent that is legit...

I love that system, it's very close to what I use:

Cap 1 T or L/S
R1 Hoody
R2 (would be like your Nanopuff)
TNF Valkyrie (similar to the Gamma)
DAS Parka

On the bottom I do something similar:

Cap 1 Pant (or nothing)
R1 Pant (for standing around days - ice climbing)
Super Guide Pant
MicroPuff Pant

For the Sierra summers (very little glacier) I go a little bit lighter:

Cap 1 T
R1 Hoody (I can't leave home without it!)
TNF Triumph Anorak (hardshell)
TNF Redpoint Optimus (primaloft)
R1 Pant (for camp/sleeping)
TNF Elixir Pant (very light softshell)

I've got my system pretty well dialed as well, using primarily Patagonia....all, temperature dependent:

Base Layer:

Merino 2 Zip-Neck, Merino 3 Zip-Kneck, or Capeline 3 Zip-Neck

R1 Hoody - one of the best pieces ever made

Shell (Stretch Latitude hard shell from a few years back if the likelihood of poor weather is high, Ascensionist soft shell is an underappreciated soft shell, houdini as well if trying to go as liiight as possible

Belay/Camp (Depending on weather again, if it's rock climbing in a very dry area with no chance of rain, hooded down sweater, if temperatures are cool, Nano puff, and if it's outright cold...DAS parka.

Hope that helps!

DanielWade wrote:I love that system, it's very close to what I use:

Cap 1 T or L/S
R1 Hoody
R2 (would be like your Nanopuff)
TNF Valkyrie (similar to the Gamma)
DAS Parka

On the bottom I do something similar:

Cap 1 Pant (or nothing)
R1 Pant (for standing around days - ice climbing)
Super Guide Pant
MicroPuff Pant


For the Sierra summers (very little glacier) I go a little bit lighter:

Cap 1 T
R1 Hoody (I can't leave home without it!)
TNF Triumph Anorak (hardshell)
TNF Redpoint Optimus (primaloft)
R1 Pant (for camp/sleeping)
TNF Elixir Pant (very light softshell)

Thanks Daniel. Just to be clear, for the top:

Roped glacier climbing (Hood/Rainier)

Cap T shirt
R1 Hoody
Houdini
Nanopuff
put on DAS or belay parka at stops

Mixed climbing in the N. Cascades/Olympics (warmer with some rock):

Cap T shirt
R1 Hoody
Gamma MX or perhaps Alpine Wind Jacket (very similar to Marmot Driclime)

In both cases, carry a light hardshell in case of heavy rain. I am beginning to wonder if I screwed up getting the Gamma MX, as there seems to be a workaround for either case without it.

Does this sound about right? Would the Gamma MX be unnecessary for Hood/Rainier?

jthomas wrote:
Roped glacier climbing (Hood/Rainier)

Cap T shirt
R1 Hoody
Houdini
Nanopuff
put on DAS or belay parka at stops

Mixed climbing in the N. Cascades/Olympics (warmer with some rock):

Cap T shirt
R1 Hoody
Gamma MX or perhaps Alpine Wind Jacket (very similar to Marmot Driclime)

In both cases, carry a light hardshell in case of heavy rain. I am beginning to wonder if I screwed up getting the Gamma MX, as there seems to be a workaround for either case without it.

Does this sound about right? Would the Gamma MX be unnecessary for Hood/Rainier?

Yes, you screwed up getting Gamma MX - Alpha or Patagonia Ascent, or anything made with GoreTex or eVent would have been better, IMO. Gamma MX is an overkill in most situations, as it has a polartec lining that is warm, and the water resistance is not that great.

I have a Gamma MX as well. On most winter climbs here in Northeast, which I assume is way colder than PNW, I only wear Gamma over my long sleeve merino baselayer, and I use DAS parka for belays and stops. When temps drop to minus 20s and 30s I would throw in a mid layer such as R1 hoody. I carry a Marmot Precip in my pack for some unanticipated wetness.

For glacier/roped travel, either lose Nanopuff or the belay Parka (use Nanopuff for summer, and belay Parka for colder seasons). Get a light-colored Cap 1 long sleeve t-shirt for hiking in lower elevations - the sun is merciless. And for any outing longer than 2-3 days get natural fiber baselayers, silk or wool - synthetics stink!

I agree with Welle on all counts.

If you bring more layers, you have more options and can be more comfortable more of the time. But, when going light, it's silly.

My usual system:

Wool 2 zip
R2
Houdini
Rab Neutrino Endurance

Smartwool light baselayer
R1 tights (optional for warmer weather)
MH Argon Ice pants. I used to use MH Exposure II bibs - way warmer and tougher, but heavy.

When it's colder (consistently below freezing) I wear a Patagonia Ascentionist instead of a Houdini - it's a light nonembrane shell. It breathes very well and provides more wind and rain protection - and much more warmth - than the Houdini.

I add a Cap 3 zip when it gets colder, and when it's really cold (-40 winchill) I swap the R2 for a hoodless Compressor. It's much warmer than the R2 and weighs the same, but doesn't breathe as well.

You'll note the zip tops - they are huge. I'll never buy a crew again. Being able to vent is far more effective than messing with layers.

Also, wool is not only less stinky, but I'm comfortable over a broader range of temps in wool.

Ok, here's a question for you cats.
I hear you on the wool. I have a smartwool, mid-weight, along with a couple other brands, and I love 'em. But, I've not yet tested them on a serious energy expenditure hike or climb. I usually wear synthetics in such instances. Wouldn't wool absorb much sweat, and then take longer to dry out? This baselayer question continues to nag me. Steve House said he would never wear wool.
Last weekend, went on a strenuous hike with my son. Initially, I wore an Rei synthetic baselayer, longsleeve, an old Patagucc expedition weight fleece(still one of my faves, though not as warm anymore-more midweight now), and topped it off with a Marmot dryclime windshell.
Now, probably should've skipped the mid-layer fleece, but about midway, I did shed it, and was only hiking in the Rei piece and the windshell. Maybe still too much. When we topped-out on the steep hike, my baselayer was drenched in sweat. "Gross," my teenage son said. I peeled it off, and was glad to have the dry fleece to then put on. I tried to air dry it while we ate, but it didn't dry much. Put it back on when we were ready to head down, minus the mid-layer fleece, but with the windshell over it, with the idea that my body heat would dry out the baselayer. Got to the bottom, and it didn't really work, as it was still wet, though not as much. Certainly the backside where it was against my pack.
I bring this example up, as I do sweat a lot, and thinking of climbing in colder temps, etc. the issue of soaking the baselayer becomes a concern, with hypothermia, etc. I do admit, that when I climbed Hood, it was mostly night, colder, etc. and I didn't sweat so much that this was a problem. So, maybe I should've done this recent hike in less, maybe only wearing the baselayer.
Still, thinking of future stuff, climbs, hikes, etc. and need to work this issue out. Also need, and am trying, to lose 10-15 lbs. and get in better shape, which would undoubtedly help.
Comments appreciated. Thanks!

Autoxfil wrote:I agree with Welle on all counts.

If you bring more layers, you have more options and can be more comfortable more of the time. But, when going light, it's silly.

My usual system:

Wool 2 zip
R2
Houdini
Rab Neutrino Endurance

Smartwool light baselayer
R1 tights (optional for warmer weather)
MH Argon Ice pants. I used to use MH Exposure II bibs - way warmer and tougher, but heavy.

When it's colder (consistently below freezing) I wear a Patagonia Ascentionist instead of a Houdini - it's a light nonembrane shell. It breathes very well and provides more wind and rain protection - and much more warmth - than the Houdini.

I add a Cap 3 zip when it gets colder, and when it's really cold (-40 winchill) I swap the R2 for a hoodless Compressor. It's much warmer than the R2 and weighs the same, but doesn't breathe as well.

You'll note the zip tops - they are huge. I'll never buy a crew again. Being able to vent is far more effective than messing with layers.

Also, wool is not only less stinky, but I'm comfortable over a broader range of temps in wool.

Great advice, thanks. Totally agree on zip T shirts. Just having that little bit of fabric around the neck makes it amazingly warmer than the same weight crew, plus you can vent when you get hot.

Not familiar with the Rab Neutrino. Is that a soft shell?

Down jacket...

http://www.rab.uk.com/clothing/down_ins ... cket---19/

dskoon wrote: Wouldn't wool absorb much sweat, and then take longer to dry out? This baselayer question continues to nag me. Steve House said he would never wear wool.

I have found that wool outperforms Capilene in every way. It does not absorb much water at all, and since it's thinner than poly for the same warmth, I think it absorbs less.

I bring this example up, as I do sweat a lot, and thinking of climbing in colder temps, etc. the issue of soaking the baselayer becomes a concern, with hypothermia, etc.

Wear less. I'm always cold when I start, but once I get up to temp I find a single Wool 2 alone is good for temps around freezing if I'm working hard. If I get cold while moving, it's a good reminder to move faster.

Also, only wear a wind layer when needed. Even a thin one will prevent drying when it's not windy.

If you're wearing a pack, you're going to sweat on your back.

Another big thing I've found for sweat management is the R2 type pile fleece. Wind cuts right through it compared to an R1 or R3, so you need to pack a wind shell for even moderate breezes. But, it wicks and dries much better.

FYI, I don't sweat any more than normal. One of my climbing partners sweats obscene amounts, even when he feels cool or cold. He likes hardshells with lots of vents as opposed to the softshells I enjoy, but he has converted to wool baselayers and R2 fleece, and loves it.



Regarding the Rab - yeah, it's a midweight puffy down jacket. I have yet to hear anything but rave reviews from an owner, and I love mine. If you decide on down insulation, the Neutrino lineup is worth a very serious look - the Endurance is great for the lower 48, the Plus is a touch warmer (I'd prefer it for Mt. Washington in bad weather), and the Andes is a real Denali type jacket.

Ok, thanks for the info there, Autoxfil.
Is the Wool2 similar in weight and thickness to say, a smartwool midweight? I have heard good things about the Pataguc wool, but I already own a smartwool, along with a midlayer,(or base, depend on temps), nice piece from Ibex.

I'll have to look at the R2. I already have a few midweight style fleeces, along with the R1.
And yeah, a few of my hiking buddies always preach that "start cool," approach. Guess I wll have to start trying it. I tend to hop outa the car, and it's cold, so I put the layers on.
And, I will try and start practicing only using the windshell when I need to. I can see now that I totally overdressed the other day, with temps probably in the high 40s, then into the 50s. Yikes.
Thanks again.

Dskoon, I only hike in my baselayer even in sub-freezing temps. Hiking is very high-output activity. Just make sure to have your extremities covered - wear a hat and gloves. And don't be lazy to put on layers the minute you stop for a break or before reaching an exposed ridge. The baselayer usually dries fast if you are quick enough to trap all your body heat from hiking. You can use a trick ice climbers use - put your pile jacket in a stuff sack on a biner and carry it easily accessible if you don't feel like getting into your pack each time.

I prefer using a Cap 1 long sleeve rather than T-shirt. If it's warm and you get down to just that layer it's better protection (sun/bugs/brush).

welle wrote:Dskoon, I only hike in my baselayer even in sub-freezing temps. Hiking is very high-output activity. Just make sure to have your extremities covered - wear a hat and gloves. And don't be lazy to put on layers the minute you stop for a break or before reaching an exposed ridge. The baselayer usually dries fast if you are quick enough to trap all your body heat from hiking. You can use a trick ice climbers use - put your pile jacket in a stuff sack on a biner and carry it easily accessible if you don't feel like getting into your pack each time.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying. Problem for me is I tend to run in-between, and more toward the colder side. So, I tend to dress warmer. I could not hike in just a baselayer in sub-freezing temps. I'd die. Think I may have a bit of Renauds syndrome, or, just getting older. Didn't used to affect me, but now, a slight chill, even w/out feeling cold, will leave my index fingers numb. Suffice to say, it can be tough to dress, for if I feel a bit of a chill, I tend to dress warmer, which can then lead to overheating.
I'll continue to experiment. Thanks for the ideas and suggestions.