I have just had a interesting PM conversation, which caused me to wonder how the alpine climbers among us define "alpine climber".

The person I had this conversation with, did not make a distinction between alpine climber and alpine style climber.

To me, the first is about which kind of mountains, the second about how you climb them. A rather important distinction. But maybe it doesn't exist?

What say you?

(Of course I know that there will be plenty who don't climb alpine who will have an opinion too, and that's fine, but I'd really would be happy to hear from the big mountain climbers, if anybody among them would like to volunteer an opinion.)

In my mind, an 'alpine climber' or more succinctly an alpinist, is someone who climbs particular types of routes in the mountains. These routes necesarily involve technical rock climbing (5th class minimum or even aid), steep technical ice, (sometimes water ice, sometime glacier ice), all on a route leading to a distinct summit.

For example, someone who climbs one of the standard routes on Mt Rainier including the DC or Emmons glacier may call themselves a 'mountaineer' or more generally a climber, whereas someone who climbs technical routes on the same mountain such as Ptarmigan Ridge may refer to themselves as alpinists.

Further more, in order to consider oneself an alpinist, one must have developed technical proficiency in rock climbing, ice climbing, glacier travel, and skiing in addition to the mountain traveler's other necessary skills set.

ExcitibleBoy wrote:Further more, in order to consider oneself an alpinist, one must have developed technical proficiency in rock climbing, ice climbing, glacier travel, and skiing in addition to the mountain traveler's other necessary skills set.

what I call mountaineer skills.. .

maybe I should have mentioned alpine style versa expedition climbing, as the definition of the term alpine style

I pretty much agree with EB's definition, Alpinist is someone who climbs mountains via technical routes, not necessarily alpine style. A lot of Eastern European alpinists climb very hard technical routes siege expedition style.

I was thinking about the real high mountains, in Karakoram et such,
but I realise it may depend

knoback wrote:Mountaineering is cleverly finding the easiest way up. Alpinism is cleverly finding the hardest way up.

That's a quality quote!

BorutKantuser wrote:The "alpine style" developed as a counterpart to the expeditional style.
It refers to a mode of single push, as one so often practices in the Alps.

Alpine climbing is probably alpinism.

borut

That's how I see it too

knoback wrote:Mountaineering is cleverly finding the easiest way up. Alpinism is cleverly finding the hardest way up. Alpine style is what you said: put it all on your back and go.

knoback wrote:Mountaineering is cleverly finding the easiest way up. Alpinism is cleverly finding the hardest way up.

Quote of the year
What if our cleverly found way up a previously unclimbed mountain turned out to be 5.10?

kamil wrote:

knoback wrote:Mountaineering is cleverly finding the easiest way up. Alpinism is cleverly finding the hardest way up.

Quote of the year
What if our cleverly found way up a previously unclimbed mountain turned out to be 5.10?

Well then you have cleverly found the hardest and easiest way up which makes you a mountaineering alpinist.

Lolli wrote:

knoback wrote:Mountaineering is cleverly finding the easiest way up. Alpinism is cleverly finding the hardest way up. Alpine style is what you said: put it all on your back and go.

guess that makes me a mountaineer

knoback wrote:Mountaineering is cleverly finding the easiest way up. Alpinism is cleverly finding the hardest way up.

Very good.

An 'alpine climber' is pretty much anyone who climbs a mountain, in any way, in alpine regions. It is a very general term, to distinguish practitioners from cragging rockclimbers, boulderers, hikers etc.

A 'mountaineer' is also a fairly general term for someone who climbs mountains, in whatever way. It could be used interchangeably with 'alpine climber' though in the latter there is maybe a slight implication that the terrain is a bit more technical, actually 'climbing', whereas a mountaineer's route on a mountain may be really just walking uphill.

So an 'alpine climb' may include a hiking approach, mountaineering up a glacier, rockclimbing up technical pitches, and hiking back down, all put together in one trip.

'Alpine style' is the way in which you do an alpine climb - when you start on the route you go from bottom to top in one go, maybe camping or bivying on the way, and come down again, hopefully. No shuttling, no pre-placed camps, no porters above BC, no fixed ropes. And ideally, no one else on the route to inadvertently show the route and break trail. Below 20,000ft most alpine climbs are done in alpine-style, but one does not necessarily follow the other. eg. a very difficult rock route on a 12,500ft peak in the Alps may involve fixing ropes and shuttling up and down.

So an 'alpine climber' does not necessarily climb in alpine style. A mountaineer can climb in alpine style, if they climb that particular way described just above (continuous ascent, no fixing, no pre-placing camps etc).

So one is a description of a general practitioner, the other a description of a specific practice.

'single push' as it is commonly used nowadays is just slightly different, a non-stop climb, no bivy or camping, no sleeping, other than nodding off at the belay drooling onto your parka ...

An 'alpinist' could be quite a general term, but traditionally in climbing it means someone who is proficient at all of climbing technical rock and ice pitches, glacier snow slogs, and skiing, maybe all in the one outing. The reason for skiing is that it is considered necessary if one is to be able to travel across any mountain terrain in any condition at any time of year - a complete mountain traveller (particularly in the European Alps, which are quite steep and glaciated). A mountaineer may not be able to climb technical rock, a rockclimber may not be able to ski - so they are not alpinists. Roughly, this skill set is based on what would be required in Europe (the Alps with a capital 'A') to become a fully qualified UIAGM / IMGA guide - which is pretty much the same as required now for the same qualifications in Canada, USA, NZ etc.

'expedition style' - ie. shuttling up and down to place and stock camps, fixing ropes and maybe using porters on the mountain.

ExcitibleBoy wrote:Further more, in order to consider oneself an alpinist, one must have developed technical proficiency in rock climbing, ice climbing, glacier travel, and skiing in addition to the mountain traveler's other necessary skills set.

So, if I climb with my skis, cross a glacier, boot up a 10' section of vertical WI with a whippet and an axe, stumble up a rock gully for ten feet, and ski back down, does that make me an "alpinist"?

Sounds like my last ski trip on Mt. Hood...

Better yet, what do you call it if you do all that shit, plus ride a plastic childrens sled off the summit back to base? Sled-alpinism? EXXXXXXXTREEEEEME Sled alpine assault? Bobsled Alpinist? What if you sled the talus and scree in the summer? EXXXTREEEEEME Sled alpint assault technician?


Why all the labels?

OJ Loenneker wrote:Better yet, what do you call it if you do all that shit, plus ride a plastic childrens sled off the summit back to base? Sled-alpinism? EXXXXXXXTREEEEEME Sled alpine assault? Bobsled Alpinist? What if you sled the talus and scree in the summer? EXXXTREEEEEME Sled alpint assault technician?


Why all the labels?

You call it lame because you brought skis and ended up sledding down.