kozman18 wrote:Sorry, but you are using the word in two completely different ways. I exploit a hammer to drive a nail. So what? The definition of “exploitation” I referred to was misusing another person to achieve a selfish goal. Many Sherpas/porters fit this definition. Just because it happens, and they will do it, doesn’t make it right (by your logic, you can get children to make sneakers for you too -- cheaply -- and that’s not a problem because the market will work itself out).

My choices are not limited to charity or payment at the going rate. The third choice is to carry my own shit up the hill. Those who pay people slave wages to do are exploiting them. Pretty simple.

Not really, "misusing another person" and "doesn't make it right" are value judgements based on your personal views which I can respect. I never said it was right but simply stated what is happening now and what has been observed in the past. Just remember many people here on SP have a great deal of opportunities open to them but I can't imagine that the Sherpa people do. This area is one of the poorest in the world and if the only job in the area is to haul crap up a hill for a few dollars a day what would you do if you lived there? Climbers carrying their own gear would actually take money away from people who desperately need it. I agree it's not the best situation but is that for us to decide or the Sherpa people? If this exploitation was unacceptable to them why doesn't their government set fair rates? Perhaps we should be lobbying the Napelese government instead of discussing it amongst ourselves.

Brad Marshall wrote:

The Chief wrote:Sounds like an excuse to condone this prevailing practice of exploitation of the folks that live in those underdeveloped nations, regardless of industry worldwide.

Fact is, most of the Climbing Industry, regardless of entity, is using the above as an excuse to "compete", produce and keep up with the growing demand.

Don't make it right now does it.

I understand where you're coming from Rick but I never said it was right. Only stating what happens in the real world. I would expect the respective governments to do something about the situation if and when it becomes important to their society. Right now cleaning up the mountain seems to be higher on their priority list. Perhaps wages will be next.

Howdy Brad,

I agree with your sentiments.

In parallel to the conversation on sherpas, fellow Sp'er Damien Gildea reminded me of another facet of climbing 'E' to which I re-iterated to another Sp'er Alan Arnette here:

Q: Anything else you would like to add?
..yeah , for all the rhetoric about bravery, endurance, goals and dreams, I still think Everest (South) can be seen as a (relatively) rich man’s folly. With Himex now moving acclimatization walks away from the Khumbu icefall to reduce risk to clients, we all need to be keenly aware that Sherpas are still ferrying most of our supplies through the icefall for the same level or risk. They don’t have the luxury of an alternate route and is why Sherpas make up most of the fatalities in the icefall.

The climbing sherpas are of course paid relatively well and a huge part of the Khumbu economy but at the very least, the additional risks they take should be part of the conversation of climbing Everest.

http://www.alanarnette.com/news/2009/12/23/interview-with-brad-jackson-and-sandy-hoby/

And RADSON, how about all the PORTERS that actually carry in and out all your shet and belongings?

Are you going to make a public statement that they are in fact paid descent wages for the work that they do, as well?

anita wrote:brad: didn't you pay for mules to haul your shit up aconcagua? I don't understand what point you're trying to make???

Hi anita, yes I've paid many times for mule service providers on Aconcagua but it actually proves my last point. The service providers in Argentina have an association and all the legitimate providers charge the same basic fees. Similarly, it should be the Sherpa people who set a fair rate for their services and not the rich climbers. Simply refusing to pay the meager wages we do now and carrying your own gear up the mountain would actually be detrimental to their society.

Theses DUDEScontribute back to the people a percentage of their income. They are also very active in assisting the local sherpa/porter population with implementing beneficial programs.

One main reason that I own five pieces of their gear. It is actually made in Nepal by Nepalese as well.

A very good cause and example of the proactiveness that is needed in the region.

Brad Marshall wrote:

anita wrote:brad: didn't you pay for mules to haul your shit up aconcagua? I don't understand what point you're trying to make???

Hi anita, yes I've paid many times for mule service providers on Aconcagua but it actually proves my last point. The service providers in Argentina have an association and all the legitimate providers charge the same basic fees. Similarly, it should be the Sherpa people who set a fair rate for their services and not the rich climbers. Simply refusing to pay the meager wages we do now and carrying your own gear up the mountain would actually be detrimental to their society.

Also Brad, its not really a valid comparison. The mules are there specifically for climbers. Porters in the Khumbu are ferrying loads 12 months of the year to all the villages that dot the Khumbu, not just supplies for the limited Everest season.

radson wrote: Porters in the Khumbu are ferrying loads 12 months of the year to all the villages that dot the Khumbu, not just supplies for the limited Everest season.

Yeah... at penny's a day for their ass busting work.

The Everest and Local Big Mountain Expedition Climbing Industry jumped right into the system in place and pay no more than the current local going rate/fees.

NIIIIIIIIIIIIIICE!

My exact point of local labor exploitation.

[quote="Dow Williams"]My post was never directed at Ms. Abbott, although she appears to have felt the apparent target. I had no idea who she was prior to my posting Will's article.

I do not praise folks I do not know. I don't grieve for folks I do not know. [b]To me, it makes such praise or grief insincere if you don't reserve it for those who you do really know. It is just my particular set of values, which I realize comes across cold to you more politically correct types. So Ms. Abbott, that is why I don't have much to say about your accomplishment, I simply don't know you or your story and have not read it.

I did however start this post by saying I did know a man, actually a neighbor of mine in Canmore, who I did very much think exploited his summit of Everest. I know first hand he was not a member of our climbing community and showed little interest in actual climbing. It appeared almost as though Everest was just part of his business plan.

It does not take being a climber and most certainly not an "elite" one, as Ms. Abbott told the press apparently, to climb Everest. Most of us who are involved in climbing know this. I believe the majority of the public and thus the majority of a forum board like this, does not know it. I interpret Will's comments to be addressed to this particular point.
[quote]

Dow, I did see you were referring to a man but I did get touchy about the post. Like you state, we do not know each others stories and I did PM you to clarify this issue before I posted. As far as what the press writes: I never said that to any media or anything even close. Working with the media is needed to promote rare disease awareness but they know nothing about climbing and were continuously making errors. I never get to proof what they write and bang my head on the table when it comes out wrong. Example: the Vasculitis Foundation's newsletter came out 3 days ago and has a picture of me holding their banner at the South Col but the caption says I'm at base camp. We live in two different world's and I have a huge amount of respect for climbers in your class.

Chief, I love the shopping bag picture I prefer a zip-lock bag.

SophiaClimbs wrote about the really of Everest and I wish more people would. The climbing was not technical but it was dangerous. There were some rescues going on and we did see some bodies (from prior years). There was a lot of waiting and it was boring. At least they had a Scrabble Game - we only had a deck of cards.

About the carrying of gear. Our group used Yaks to bring in most of the gear. It is true that I never carried more than 35 lbs in my pack but our porters and Sherpas were paid very well. And we all left them a lot of clothing and gear for their use or for their families. We all became a family. The Sherpas are proud to be there and fight for the chance to go up the mountain.

As for the Sherpas that fixed the lines on the upper mountain: they consider this a great honor and are paid well to do it.

The Chief wrote:Like anything else, if the people boycotted the area and demanded a change in the wage and treatment system, I guarantee ya that the Nepalese gov't would quickly take notice and rethink their current protocols and standards.

OK, Chiefie, here's where I gotta stop you. I agree with you on most things and there are a few times where I feel like Lebowski and Walter and I just want to yell out, "this isn't freakin' 'Nam Walter!". But at the end of the day, I respect all of your opinions and agree with most of them.

The Nepalese are in a really weird spot. China is constantly putting pressure on them for the blind eye they turn towards Tibet and the Tibetans "struggle" for freedom. China is still pissed about Tibet and takes it out on Nepal. The Nepalese don't like the Chinese anymore than the Tibetans, but can't say no. I REALLY don't want to get on a Tibet tangent here because I think there are some good things being said here (and some absolutely worthless things), but the ecomony of the Himalayas (Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan, China, India) and their people still play by the same rules they do here Stateside (and in Canada Brad!). Supply and demand. Please don't quote the BS Sally Struthers line from the little children in Africa with the flys buzzing around their faces where she looks into the camera and says "these children live on $2 a day..." Purchasing Power Parity.

The government of Nepal is basically a failed state that relys on the charity of Western governments, trade routes through the Himalayas, natrual resources that China and India gobble up, and CLIMBERS. Yak dung and caterpillar moss won't get it done.

What a good or service is worth is exactly what the agreed upon price is. Simple as that. There is no social responsibility to make sure everyone gets an above market price. The price for a Sherpa in the Himalaya is $2 a day. The price for a lawyer in New York is $400 an hour. Put the Sherpa in New York and I wouldn't pay him $2 for the whole day. Put the lawyer in the Himalaya and I'd pay the sherpa $400 an hour before I paid the lawyer $2 a day. Its simple economics. Its not personal. If the sherpa don't want the job, then he doesnt have to take it.

According to Transparency International, a corruption watchdog out of Berlin, the government of Nepal ranks 143rd in the world (out of 180) in how corrupt the government is (Canada #8, US #19). Nepal is four spots behind Pakistan and three spots ahead of Zimbabwe. Corruption is the probelm in Nepal. Not the wages of Sherpas. The Sherpas are being taken advantage of by their own government, not by Western climbers.

Much of the money that western climbers put into the economy is spent getting there, staying there, and in some cases, never leaving. Yes, sadly, much of the money ends up in tour operators hands, but there are large costs and risks associated with their business, so they should be paid accordingly for it. I really don't know a tour operator who got rich running people up Everest (maybe Russel Brice, but that was from TV and ads, not skimming the Sherpa wages).

radson wrote:Also Brad, its not really a valid comparison. The mules are there specifically for climbers. Porters in the Khumbu are ferrying loads 12 months of the year to all the villages that dot the Khumbu, not just supplies for the limited Everest season.

Radson, thanks for your insight as it helps me to better understand the situation. My comment regarding the Aco mules was not meant to be a comparision but, rather, a contrast of the situation as I understand it.

PORTERS!

Not the Sherpas.

I am calling out the Guiding Industry's on the abuse of the local Porter Systems throughout the entire region.

The poor unsung hero souls that get paid jackshit nothing for all the back and ass busting hauling of everything that goes up to and then out of BC. All of it!




Ironically, I periodically do some local "Porter" gigs here in the Whitney area. I get paid and tipped rather well for it. On avg I will receive anywhere close to 2-3 days of my normal Guide daily wages after tips for maybe six hours worth of pig hauling.

The way I figure it, I make more on one Porter gig, than many if not most of the Nepalese Porters make in a single lifetime of them doing far more ass busting work than I could ever imagine doing.

Brad, you used a helicopter to climb Robson for gods sake (the hump and then technical aspects of the mousetrap is what make the Kain face such a classic). Suppose to be a dream of yours and you damn near flew to the summit to start. You would whore out your mother to get to a summit, call a spade a spade. You could care less about porters or mules as long as they carry your shit for you. From what I hear, you would probably spend 30 minutes negotiating the meager price they are normally paid.

I could not stand for someone else hauling my shit anywhere or using heli's in the Canadian Rockies, 12,000 is all we are talking about. Have some friggin pride.

I understand the arguments about the local market prices, corrupt governments, etc. I am sure it’s true.

But I couldn’t (and wouldn’t) pay someone $2/day to haul my stuff -- don’t care whether they are in Nepal or New York. It’s not right, and being a party to it because “that’s the way it is” still doesn’t make it right. Plus, when you climb a mountain with the assistance of porters and Sherpas, who do everything except haul you up the hill (not to mention those who are short roped), then it’s not the same sport as mountaineering. Let's face it, some/many people who make it to the summit of Everest do so only because they were assisted -- they could not do it without such assistance. Maybe “Assisted Mountaineering” would be a good name for it. Still hard, still dangerous no doubt -- just not for me.

Dow Williams wrote:Brad, you used a helicopter to climb Robson for gods sake. Suppose to be a dream of yours and you damn near flew to the summit to start. You would whore out your mother to get to a summit

Ouch.... say it ain't so, Brad!

Fletch wrote:

"OK, Chiefie, here's where I gotta stop you. I agree with you on most things and there are a few times where I feel like Lebowski and Walter and I just want to yell out, "this isn't freakin' 'Nam Walter!". But at the end of the day, I respect all of your opinions and agree with most of them.

The Nepalese are in a really weird spot. China is constantly putting pressure on them for the blind eye they turn towards Tibet and the Tibetans "struggle" for freedom. China is still pissed about Tibet and takes it out on Nepal. The Nepalese don't like the Chinese anymore than the Tibetans, but can't say no. I REALLY don't want to get on a Tibet tangent here because I think there are some good things being said here (and some absolutely worthless things), but the ecomony of the Himalayas (Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan, China, India) and their people still play by the same rules they do here Stateside (and in Canada Brad!). Supply and demand. Please don't quote the BS Sally Struthers line from the little children in Africa with the flys buzzing around their faces where she looks into the camera and says "these children live on $2 a day..." Purchasing Power Parity.

The government of Nepal is basically a failed state that relys on the charity of Western governments, trade routes through the Himalayas, natrual resources that China and India gobble up, and CLIMBERS. Yak dung and caterpillar moss won't get it done.

What a good or service is worth is exactly what the agreed upon price is. Simple as that. There is no social responsibility to make sure everyone gets an above market price. The price for a Sherpa in the Himalaya is $2 a day. The price for a lawyer in New York is $400 an hour. Put the Sherpa in New York and I wouldn't pay him $2 for the whole day. Put the lawyer in the Himalaya and I'd pay the sherpa $400 an hour before I paid the lawyer $2 a day. Its simple economics. Its not personal. If the sherpa don't want the job, then he doesnt have to take it.

According to Transparency International, a corruption watchdog out of Berlin, the government of Nepal ranks 143rd in the world (out of 180) in how corrupt the government is (Canada #8, US #19). Nepal is four spots behind Pakistan and three spots ahead of Zimbabwe. Corruption is the probelm in Nepal. Not the wages of Sherpas. The Sherpas are being taken advantage of by their own government, not by Western climbers.

Much of the money that western climbers put into the economy is spent getting there, staying there, and in some cases, never leaving. Yes, sadly, much of the money ends up in tour operators hands, but there are large costs and risks associated with their business, so they should be paid accordingly for it. I really don't know a tour operator who got rich running people up Everest (maybe Russel Brice, but that was from TV and ads, not skimming the Sherpa wages."



I agree with Fletch. It's just simple economics. Also, a few years back, I had dinner in a Mendoza restaurant with Lhakpa Rita Sherpa (Sherpa Adventure Gear). He was working for AA at the time. His view on this was that the lives of both the Sherpas and Porters had been vastly improved by the influx of western climbers in Nepal.[/b]