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Your Time vs. Book Time

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Re: Your Time vs. Book Time

Postby MoapaPk » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:21 am

mattski wrote:by the looks of things you guys in the usa have nice approach trails with out evin a stone on them

Approach trail for Mt Wilson, NV (before the real climbing):
Image

First Creek. No stones, just big rocks.
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Re: Your Time vs. Book Time

Postby nartreb » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:35 am

It all depends. If I'm packing light and tyring to go fast, I can often go about twice as fast as book time. On a winter overnight trip, breaking trail, I'm happy to equal book time. Now if I were actually fast, I'd be aiming at the record for the Pemi Loop: seven hours (book time 20:15).

As for east vs west, I'll say this: what's this word "switchback"? I've got a buddy swears he's seen a few in the East, but he believes in Bigfoot too.
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Re: Your Time vs. Book Time

Postby Castlereagh » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:11 am

nartreb wrote:It all depends. If I'm packing light and tyring to go fast, I can often go about twice as fast as book time. On a winter overnight trip, breaking trail, I'm happy to equal book time. Now if I were actually fast, I'd be aiming at the record for the Pemi Loop: seven hours (book time 20:15).



All the speed records (here and out west in CO/CA as well) are unreal. Half book time is pretty damn fast too. I fast walk when I can, so I gotta figure you're at jogging speed by that point?


MoapaPk wrote:Go off-trail in the NE; say, the Adirondacks. Report when you get back.


Trust me, I am almost more terrified of the ADK bushwhacks than I am most class 3-4 peaks out west.




The whole terrain debate, I'd definitely have to say that I think the West is tougher. I've probably never even experienced the worst of the talus of Idaho or the scree of the Absarokas, to name a few examples. Yeah, there's switchbacks below tree line, but once you're up above the trees going 1000 ft up a scree gully steeper than most non-switchbacking paths in the NE, that's pretty tough shit.

I did Mt. Powell the other month (in the Gores, one of the easier peaks of the range even). 10 miles round trip, 4200 net elevation gain (I'm convinced it's close to over 5000 if you consider all the ups and downs). Doesn't sound too back, but pretty much 90% of that elevation gain is over steep, loose terrain with poor footing. I don't think I've ever been so exhausted on a hike, even compared to more technically difficult outings (such as N Maroon or Pyramid); also another reason why I dread S Maroon, whenever I get to that.
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Re: Your Time vs. Book Time

Postby Alpinisto » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:54 pm

MoapaPk wrote:Go off-trail in the NE; say, the Adirondacks. Report if you get back.


There...fixed that for ya. :D
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Re: Your Time vs. Book Time

Postby Bark Eater » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:55 pm

I expect book times are largely published to keep beginners from biting off more than they can chew and from getting into trouble. Most experienced hikers beat them. Of course there are huge differences in pace depending upon whether you are day tripping or carrying a full pack. Re: Eastern vs. Western trails debate. Switchback? What's a switchback? :D
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Re: Your Time vs. Book Time

Postby nartreb » Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:40 pm

Half book time is pretty damn fast too. I fast walk when I can, so I gotta figure you're at jogging speed by that point?


Book time on flat ground is 2mph, a pretty easy walk. To do it in half the time you need to average 4mph (15-minute miles) which is a brisk walk or a pretty slow jog. You can quick-walk and not take breaks, or walk some and jog some. When there's a goodly slope (1000ft/mile), book time is 1mph, a really slow walk. To double that pace, just keep moving steadily uphill at your normal walking pace (the effort level will be higher, but the rhythm of your steps should be the same - you're not jogging, you keep a foot on the ground at all times), and don't stop for any reason. You can gain extra time by jogging on the flatter sections - you'll still experience them as restful compared to the uphills.
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Re: Your Time vs. Book Time

Postby nartreb » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:41 am

About that east vs west stuff: there's nothing like providing actual evidence. Think you know a rough or dangerous trail? Take a photo and add it to this album:

That's a trail??

I've seeded it with northeastern trails but I'm sure other regions could muster some good photos.
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Re: Your Time vs. Book Time

Postby Arthur Digbee » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:12 am

Florida Frank wrote:I expect book times are largely published to keep beginners from biting off more than they can chew and from getting into trouble. Most experienced hikers beat them. Of course there are huge differences in pace depending upon whether you are day tripping or carrying a full pack.


Exactly so.

I hope some Europeans weigh in -- their trails are marked in time, not distance. I'm still not sure who this imaginary hiker is, which drives me crazy.

Florida Frank wrote:Re: Eastern vs. Western trails debate. Switchback? What's a switchback? :D
:lol:

Yup. I hike both places, and always *expect* an equivalent Eastern trail to be slower. Half Dome trail or Flattop Mountain in RMNP are about same steepness as typical trails in the Smokies, but I'm slower in the Smokies. Maybe it's the humidity, but I only go there when it's cool or cold.

nartreb wrote:Book time on flat ground is 2mph, a pretty easy walk. To do it in half the time you need to average 4mph (15-minute miles) which is a brisk walk or a pretty slow jog. You can quick-walk and not take breaks, or walk some and jog some. When there's a goodly slope (1000ft/mile), book time is 1mph, a really slow walk. To double that pace, just keep moving steadily uphill at your normal walking pace (the effort level will be higher, but the rhythm of your steps should be the same - you're not jogging, you keep a foot on the ground at all times), and don't stop for any reason. You can gain extra time by jogging on the flatter sections - you'll still experience them as restful compared to the uphills.


I'm a fast walker/hiker and don't find that I'm jogging or quasi-jogging at those paces. The quasi-jogging kicks in at about 4.5 mph on downhills.
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Re: Your Time vs. Book Time

Postby MarkDidier » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:46 am

nartreb wrote:About that east vs west stuff: there's nothing like providing actual evidence. Think you know a rough or dangerous trail? Take a photo and add it to this album:

That's a trail??

I've seeded it with northeastern trails but I'm sure other regions could muster some good photos.



I added a half dozen pics - 5 from North Carolina and 1 from Tennessee. Feel free to delete if they don't fit the bill! :wink:
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Re: Your Time vs. Book Time

Postby triyoda » Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:37 pm

justing wrote:
triyoda wrote:I think terrain in the East is typically a lot harder than stuff out west.


Though I haven't done much in the northeast aside from a wet and rainy hike up Mt Washington, I would find this, uh, surprising.


I am talking about hiking, not technical mountaineering. Granted "The West" is kind of vague, when I say the east, I am primarily talking about The Adirondacks, The Whites and The Catskills.
In my experience, the fact the trails in the east are often wet is what makes the terrain difficult. Wet rocks and roots are a pain in the ass, to the point that it almost takes the fun out of hiking. I would much rather do a class 3 or Class 4 route out West (e.g. I feel I am less likely to fall), even on supposedly rotten rock (Elk range or San Juans in CO for example) than a typical hike in the Adirondacks. Class 3 scrambling is fun, picking your way up wet mossy rocks and slippery roots, while trying to avoid mud puddles is decidedly not.

And as far as Mt. Washington, I think it actually has terrain that is more similar to what you would find in the West than what you would find in the rest of the East (aside from Katahdin). Not surprisingly, these are the only two peaks in the east that really have Class 3 or Class 4 routes.
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Re: Your Time vs. Book Time

Postby nartreb » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:56 am

triyoda wrote:[Mt. Washington...Katahdin... these are the only two peaks in the east that really have Class 3 or Class 4 routes.


There is plenty of class 3 or 4 terrain in the East, but since almost all of it is below treeline and trail-less, it's really, really unpleasant. Hence the peculiar Eastern phenomenon of climbing on slides,which have their own hazards and aren't much like what Westerners have in mind when they picture a "class 3 or 4 route"
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Re: Your Time vs. Book Time

Postby woodsxc » Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:33 pm

I don't pay too much attention to book time. I check maps for distance and elevation and go from there. On flat trails, I can hold 4 miles an hour all day. As they get steeper, that speed decreases. I do agree with the book assessment of 1000 feet of vertical gain taking about as much time as a horizontal mile (for hiking/scrambling).

I haven't done any mountain running in the East, so I can't weigh in on that. I have done a fair bit in Montana though. There, I was able to hold 8 minute pace on the short and steep climbs (7 miles round trip, 500 ft/mile) and anywhere from 6:30 to 7:15 on more level stuff (12 round trip, 350 ft/mile). It's just fun. My xc team would go out to Montana at the start of the summer and we'd spend a week cruising the trails and exploring the Jewel Basin.
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Re: Your Time vs. Book Time

Postby Bark Eater » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:25 pm

I love the rare occasion running up some of the steeper, more technical trails around here when I have caught and passed mountain bikers. Now that's fun!
Not that I don't have respect for mtn. bikers....just nice to turn the tables once in a while!
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