blah blah blah. You guys see it your way, I see it mine. Their ban on climbing doesn't reflect the will of the community. Their ban on climbing also has little integrity and can be violated at their whim, or for a few bucks. Also, they have no right in my mind to ban climbing at all. I respect their culture. That doesn't mean I have to listen to their climbing ban. Respect for someone doesn't mean following all orders even if they are crazy and given as an afterthought.

Franky wrote:blah blah blah. You guys see it your way, I see it mine. Their ban on climbing doesn't reflect the will of thecommunityhe . Their ban on climbing also has little integrity and can be violated at their whim, or for a few bucks. Also, they have no right in my mind to ban climbing at all. I respect their culture. That doesn't mean I have to listen to their climbing ban. Respect for someone doesn't mean following all orders even if they are crazy and given as an afterthought.

You're all over the place on this, total contridictions. "their" and 'the community', who's community are you talking about? The climbing community or that of the tribe? "Their ban" and "their whim".......it's THEIR land, they have the right. They have no right to ban.......?????? It's their land. I respect their culture.........now that is funny, no you don't. This might be the most humorous post I've read, and I really don't even have a strong stance on this issue but
I would tend to dissagree with your points.

Franky wrote:blah blah blah. You guys see it your way, I see it mine. Their ban on climbing doesn't reflect the will of the community. Their ban on climbing also has little integrity and can be violated at their whim, or for a few bucks. Also, they have no right in my mind to ban climbing at all. I respect their culture. That doesn't mean I have to listen to their climbing ban. Respect for someone doesn't mean following all orders even if they are crazy and given as an afterthought.

Who owns the land?

There is a difference between The Navajo Nation and those making the rules. Your assumption that the rules reflect the will of all navajos is one unified voice is a disrespectful assumption. We disagree about what rights a landowner has. In that regard we will have to agree to disagree.

One can respect someone and not listen to their request.

First of all, I am willing to bet that you did not clean the older shit death trap bolts & Leeper Hangers, and place good solid anchors in place. Thus making the anchor safe for all future use. This shows your complete ignorance on proper and safe Anchor/Rebolting protocols. I am also betting that you did not use 1/2" X 3" SS Five Piece bolts as is the proper and safe procedure for any Anchor replacement in any Sandstone environment.



Edited for clarity.

Anyone want to spray me and my buddies for walking up the Mist Trail when the NPS closed it for winter? Or a leisurely little 3 hour hike on Sutter Buttes?

I hardly see a difference. Folks want to be unreasonable and restrict access, then these things are to be expected. Someone I think the Navajo Nation is just as strong as robust today as it was the weekend before. Bolt issue is another item.

mrchad9 wrote:Anyone want to spray me and my buddies for walking up the Mist Trail when the NPS closed it for winter? Or a leisurely little 3 hour hike on Sutter Buttes?

I hardly see a difference. Folks want to be unreasonable and restrict access, then these things are to be expected.

So let me get this right, you are equating your accessing an NPS WINTER CLOSURE with the outright trespassing and destruction on clearly marked privately owned property?

And in doing so, justifying and condoning this type behavior?


On another note, I just looked at the folks that voted a 10/10 on this particular TR. Quite discerning to say the least, to see that some of those are the same individuals on this site, that have frequently demanded that all people give them and/or the environment, more due respect..... hmmmmm.

Oh how I love to see the blatant hypocrisy....

I don't think Franky or mrchad9 understand how Native American reservations and land works. Federally recognized Tribal Nations are for many intents and purposes sovereign nations. They do not have to follow the same federal laws as other US citizens. This is why you can go to a casino and buy illegal fireworks on Native American land. Because it is their land and they make their own laws.

mrchad9 wrote: Folks want to be unreasonable and restrict access, then these things are to be expected.

If folks want to break Navajo Tribal laws and end up in a Navajo Tribal jail, then those things are to be expected.

ExcitibleBoy wrote:I don't think Franky or mrchad9 understand how Native American reservations and land works. Federally recognized Tribal Nations are for many intents and purposes sovereign nations. They do not have to follow the same federal laws as other US citizens. This is why you can go to a casino and buy illegal fireworks on Native American land. Because it is their land and they make their own laws.

That's why Indians can't finance cars, cause they won't let banks repo cars on the Res...

My friend is Indian and he financed his car. Perhaps you meant Native Americans?

ExcitibleBoy wrote:I don't think Franky or mrchad9 understand how Native American reservations and land works. Federally recognized Tribal Nations are for many intents and purposes sovereign nations. They do not have to follow the same federal laws as other US citizens. This is why you can go to a casino and buy illegal fireworks on Native American land. Because it is their land and they make their own laws.

All I ask is that we as a community, DO NOT condone nor endorse this type of behavior.

It isn't clearly marked private property. I do understand how the reservation works. In fact, the land Ship Rock is on is Tribal Trust land. Not really privately owned unless you consider the Navajo Nation as a private entity.

The Chief wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:Anyone want to spray me and my buddies for walking up the Mist Trail when the NPS closed it for winter? Or a leisurely little 3 hour hike on Sutter Buttes?

I hardly see a difference. Folks want to be unreasonable and restrict access, then these things are to be expected.

So let me get this right, you are equating your accessing an NPS WINTER CLOSURE with the outright trespassing and destruction on clearly marked privately owned property?

No. I am equating an NPS winter closure with outright trespassing on private property. I am not equating it with the destruction of the property. I clearly said the bolt item was a seperate issue.

ExcitibleBoy wrote:I don't think Franky or mrchad9 understand how Native American reservations and land works. Federally recognized Tribal Nations are for many intents and purposes sovereign nations. They do not have to follow the same federal laws as other US citizens. This is why you can go to a casino and buy illegal fireworks on Native American land. Because it is their land and they make their own laws.

mrchad9 wrote: Folks want to be unreasonable and restrict access, then these things are to be expected.

If folks want to break Navajo Tribal laws and end up in a Navajo Tribal jail, then those things are to be expected.

Why in god's name do you think we do not understand how Native American reservations work? It is pretty obvious we do. That is why Franky didn't want them knowing what they were doing beforehand, because he knows exactly how they work. You try to make a blanket (incorrect) statement like that to support your arguement, and it only undercuts it.

We know they can restrict access. Lots of entities do. But you can choose to ignore that restriction too. The only part of you post that makes any sense and isn't incorrect or simply stating the obvious is the end. You accept the consequences for ignoring any laws restricting access. If caught, do your time or pay your fine and don't complain about it. Just part of the game. No one said he shouldn't have had to pay if caught in the act.

Selfish and totally disrespectful...

Edited for clarity.

The Chief wrote:mrchad9

Restricting access???

This entire area is CLEARLY AND VISIBLY POSTED PRIVATE PROPERTY!

Big ass difference regardless the access and bolting issue.

Well so is Sutter Buttes but I hopped a fence and strolled up there and I don't regret it. So maybe that was a better analogy. (That was after about 1-2 years of trying to get legal access though).

The Chief wrote:I need to ask you, are you in fact condoning and endorsing this type of behavior? The blatant trespassing and destruction of and onto Posted Private Property, in order to achieve ones climbing dreams/goals?

I am not specifically endorsing it. But I am condoning it. If someone wants to break the rules and risk the consequenses that is fine by me, have done it myself with regards to private property (though I try to minimize it). In fact, I break laws every day when I drive over the speed limit. It is my right to do so. And every 2-3 years I get caught and have to face the consequences. No big deal. I pay the fine and move on.

Destruction of property, taking of assets (not what was done but it was used as an analogy in a comment to the report)... those are things I am very much against and do not condone myself or endorse.