I really rely on my umbilicals. As much as they are a moving belay for me I also have come to rely on them to retain my tools while climbing leashless. On the occasions I do climb without umbilicals I am very careful to watch where my tools are all the time and that they are securely placed. And I don't worry about my partners kicking or bumping them off the climb. May be I should be more concerned all the time..

more here:
http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2011/01 ... t-and.html

'Moving belay'?

I'm told that the umbilicals are not meant to hold body weight. I also hear stories of climbers falling on a climb with their leashless tools on the wall, and then having their umbilicals send the tools back into their faces.

Yup! Use em daily.

I modified mine and made them more secure adding to the prescribed manu KN Fall Load by at least 2KN's. Thus I probably got a good 4ish going. Perfect for as you say a "Moving Belay". The load that may be generated is more of a static than dynamic anyhow.


Kheegster,

If what you are hearing is true, then those individuals are surely not placing their tools properly IMO. I hang on my tools periodically and also sometimes utilize them as part of my belay anchor. Solid placements are mandatory when working harder routes.

I never use mine when working harder grade "MIXED" single pitchers or when pushing myself on TR!

kheegster wrote:'Moving belay'?

I'm told that the umbilicals are not meant to hold body weight. I also hear stories of climbers falling on a climb with their leashless tools on the wall, and then having their umbilicals send the tools back into their faces.

I believe Black Diamond summed it up well with this diagram:


Chief, are those Grivel X Monsters? I noticed that they are now $100 each at MEC and have replaceable picks too. I am thinking of buying.

DanTheMan wrote:Chief, are those Grivel X Monsters? I noticed that they are now $100 each at MEC and have replaceable picks too. I am thinking of buying.

Yup! Love em for MIXING it up.

Recommend that you get em for that price.

more:

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2011/01 ... again.html

Glad it's you 'testing' your umbilicals like that Dane, and not me Good to know though, thanks.

Rick - on those Grivels, is that little spike at the bottom all in one piece with the shaft? Because if so that would make it a lot stronger for hanging off.

Kheegster - I think with these systems it's important to compare apples with apples. There were some good test photos around (from BD? Luebben? Dane?) that showed the spikes ripped out of BD tools under a relatively small dynamic load, because they were not designed for that - they were just glued in. So BD were saying you can be clipped into your tools with umbilicals, just don't rely on them to hold any kind of load. If the picks don't rip out of the ice, the spike will pull out of the tool (and I think in one test, the head broke?). Obviously on such Grivels the latter problem is removed. Rick has also got proper biners on his setup, not the issue BD ones. So on his system, as he has it, the weakest points are probably(?) the pick in the ice and the little loop he has tied from umbilical to QD. If these are both good, then his system is probably fine to hang off - obviously, unless he's posting on SP from the afterlife. In which case the only question would be, did he go up, or down?

Damien Gildea wrote:Rick - on those Grivels, is that little spike at the bottom all in one piece with the shaft? Because if so that would make it a lot stronger for hanging off.

The entire tool, except for the head section which is a single replaceable hot forged chromoloy steel unit, is indeed also a single hot forged piece of chromoly steel. Thus both holes within the axe shaft are rated at 24kn or greater by Grivel.

BTW: I never hang off the Umbi's. I actually clip my PAS to one of the attached biners on the Umbi when I do. Thus, the weakest point of the system is in fact the tool placement in the ice. Been doing it for over 20 years now and works like a champ when the burn comes.

Some confusion there Damien. All the BD technical tool shafts are T rated which includes the spikes and clip in points.

"All technical tools these days sold in Europe must pass minimum CE norms. The shaft of a technical tool must pass the T (technical) test, guaranteeing a minimum strength of 350kg. or 771lbs. "

As long as you keep what BD originally intened for the spike screw engagement you will have 350kg.

Add too many spacers or let the bolt get loose (as the one failure I saw did) and you'll pull the spike off a new Fusion. Not likely on the other three BD tools @ 771 pounds. And no bolts to keep tight.

Dane1 wrote:... All the BD technical tool shafts are T rated which includes the spikes and clip in points.

Older ones too? I think the tools tested were early Cobras or non-CF BPs, so as time goes by it may not matter so much. I still can't find the pics online, just references to the article, but I did notice this, which you may have seen:
http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthr ... _BD_Ice_To

Just how old are we talking? 10 years or Zeros use to pull through the bamboo after a season or two of the laminate getting wet and rotting out

I asked @ BD because I really hadn't thought much about it. And should have known the answer as much as I use the tools and trust the eventual outcome.

Quick answer?

"With the exception of the new Fusion (1500#) , we have an internal requirement for the ultimate end to end strength to exceed 2000lbs (we usually exceed this by a large margin)."

The full BD answer and more on the CE info will be here:

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2011/02 ... l-ice.html