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Layering and down jackets

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Re: Layering and down jackets

Postby jthomas » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:29 pm

sneakyracer wrote:Hi, I would not layer 2 down jackets, too much thickness to move well. What I might layer is a thin primaloft jacket under a larger down jacket during stops. A Patagonia Nano puff is a good jacket to layer under a shell or down parka.


This is what I am considering. My theory is that the Nano would always give me some warmth, even if I get it damp, plus it layers well and takes up almost zero space. Would put on the down parka at stops/in camp. Just need to decide how big a down parka to get. I brought home a Pata down hoody and a Marmot Ama Dablam to compare.

jim
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Re: Layering and down jackets

Postby sneakyracer » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:02 pm

jthomas wrote:
sneakyracer wrote:Hi, I would not layer 2 down jackets, too much thickness to move well. What I might layer is a thin primaloft jacket under a larger down jacket during stops. A Patagonia Nano puff is a good jacket to layer under a shell or down parka.


This is what I am considering. My theory is that the Nano would always give me some warmth, even if I get it damp, plus it layers well and takes up almost zero space. Would put on the down parka at stops/in camp. Just need to decide how big a down parka to get. I brought home a Pata down hoody and a Marmot Ama Dablam to compare.

jim


Hi, layering under a down jacket makes it much warmer obviously so in theory you can get by with a much thinner down jacket (but still windproof) as outer but one that still has a large enough hood to go over everything. I just saw the Nano in a Patagonia store in SoHo and it comes in several styles, pullover (loved it but no hand pockets), jacket (has pockets) and the hoody (has pockets, the hood fits close, very nice). The material is light and has thin insulation, its basically a lightly insulated wind shell. I bet that layering a 100g primaloft jacket over it will be extremely warm, enough for sub zero temps easy. The only issue is that a lot of the 100g primaloft jackets dont have a large enough hood, the one in the Patagonia Micro Puff isnt large enough for example but the one in the First Ascent Igniter is (plus it has nice light fleece lining in the chin area) so pick carefully.
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Re: Layering and down jackets

Postby jthomas » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:13 pm

jim[/quote]

Hi, layering under a down jacket makes it much warmer obviously so in theory you can get by with a much thinner down jacket (but still windproof) as outer but one that still has a large enough hood to go over everything. I just saw the Nano in a Patagonia store in SoHo and it comes in several styles, pullover (loved it but no hand pockets), jacket (has pockets) and the hoody (has pockets, the hood fits close, very nice). The material is light and has thin insulation, its basically a lightly insulated wind shell. I bet that layering a 100g primaloft jacket over it will be extremely warm, enough for sub zero temps easy. The only issue is that a lot of the 100g primaloft jackets dont have a large enough hood, the one in the Patagonia Micro Puff isnt large enough for example but the one in the First Ascent Igniter is (plus it has nice light fleece lining in the chin area) so pick carefully.[/quote]

I am rethinking the down. Seems like the Nano pullover layered with either the Micro or Nano hoody would work well. I already have the Nano pullover. I wonder if the Nano hoody would be enough on top of the, or if I should go with the Micro? Anyone tried this?

Jim
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Re: Layering and down jackets

Postby WML » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:19 pm

Well, world class alpinist Kelly Cordes has this to say RE: puffy jackets...

http://www.thecleanestline.com/2011/01/from-the-trenches-series-the-belay-parka.html

This theory seems to be the prevailing train of thought out there and for good reason.
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Re: Layering and down jackets

Postby dskoon » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:57 pm

WML wrote:Well, world class alpinist Kelly Cordes has this to say RE: puffy jackets...

http://www.thecleanestline.com/2011/01/from-the-trenches-series-the-belay-parka.html

This theory seems to be the prevailing train of thought out there and for good reason.


That's a pretty clear walk-through by Mr. Cordes. Thanks for that link.
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Re: Layering and down jackets

Postby WML » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:57 pm

KC's blog also has lots of very informative info on climbing, layers, glove choices, etc. The guy is a very talented writer and I love the fact he does not take himself very seriously. His blog site is [url]kellycordes.wordpress.com[/url] he also posts stuff on that cleanest line site as well.
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Re: Layering and down jackets

Postby talusfinder » Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:10 pm

I don't really see the point of layering down (or synthetics). Down (or synthetic) insulates by allowing the heat from your body to warm up the interstices between filaments. When I sleep in a good down bag, I'm actually colder if I wear something that prevents heat from getting into the bag (e.g. fleece jacket). Instead, I just wear a midweight long underwear layer, hat and good socks, and am really toasty even in very cold temps. It seems as if the heat from your body would hardly reach the second layer of down, so all you end up having is a bulky "shell". You might as well just throw a hardshell over your down jacket to achieve the same result, with far less bulk and cost (I usually use a $50 Marmot Precip).

In my opinion, you want to buy a really good down jacket (or two), but keep the amount of material between you and the down to a minimum. Don't skimp, as poorly made or lower-quality down jackets (and bags) have cold spots, which are huge heat sinks and really decrease the efficiency of the down. Search around, as there are always good deals online. There is never a need to spend MSRP on quality gear.

For the record, I have a MH Ghost jacket and a MH Subzero Parka. I can go out in -20F for a few mile hike (nowhere near as strenuous and bodyheat-generating as a high altitude climb) in the MH Subzero Parka with nothing but a t-shirt underneath and be too warm. I have also used the Subzero on our SAR team's winter survival training and have been very warm and comfortable, even sitting around "camp" for extended periods in high winds and very cold temps.

The lighterweight, hoodless Ghost routinely sits in my pack on climbs with temps around zero, and I very rarely put it on for anything but the descent.

EDIT: While I very much respect Kelly Cordes, most of us will not climb at anywhere near his level. His gear selection is well thought out and tested for his style of alpine climbing, but that may not necessarily apply to most of us chumps (including myself) who are happy to make it up Orizaba, Denali or a bunch of winter fourteeners in our lifetimes...
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Re: Layering and down jackets

Postby SJ » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:24 pm

talusfinder wrote:EDIT: While I very much respect Kelly Cordes, most of us will not climb at anywhere near his level. His gear selection is well thought out and tested for his style of alpine climbing, but that may not necessarily apply to most of us chumps (including myself) who are happy to make it up Orizaba, Denali or a bunch of winter fourteeners in our lifetimes...


Haha, good point. I love reading these blogs and hearing about all of their tricks only to realize that I'll probably never find myself on the Rupal Face sharing my last Gu with some dude who's in the same sleeping bag as me in order to save weight.

Still though, a lot of the advice can be applied to climbs in the lower 48, you just need to be realistic about the conditions you will be facing. I've revamped my whole clothing system with a 'less is more' approach lately after reading 'Extreme Alpinism' and some of the blogs and posts on this site. Still have all my digits for now...
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Re: Layering and down jackets

Postby talusfinder » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:44 pm

SJ wrote:
talusfinder wrote:EDIT: While I very much respect Kelly Cordes, most of us will not climb at anywhere near his level. His gear selection is well thought out and tested for his style of alpine climbing, but that may not necessarily apply to most of us chumps (including myself) who are happy to make it up Orizaba, Denali or a bunch of winter fourteeners in our lifetimes...


Haha, good point. I love reading these blogs and hearing about all of their tricks only to realize that I'll probably never find myself on the Rupal Face sharing my last Gu with some dude who's in the same sleeping bag as me in order to save weight.

Still though, a lot of the advice can be applied to climbs in the lower 48, you just need to be realistic about the conditions you will be facing. I've revamped my whole clothing system with a 'less is more' approach lately after reading 'Extreme Alpinism' and some of the blogs and posts on this site. Still have all my digits for now...


I 100% agree with the less is more approach to gear. Which is exactly why it is unnecessary to layer 2 down jackets! :)

Also, layering 2 down/synth jackets would likely compress the inner jacket, thereby reducing it's efficiency for trapping heat, which is the entire purpose of the jacket. Just use one and wear a lightweight shell over it, if necessary. Even then, that may be a bad idea as it might allow a buildup of condensation within the insulation. Definitely a bad idea with down, and should be avoided if possible with synthetic as even that loses some insulating capacity when wet.
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Re: Layering and down jackets

Postby bearbreeder » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:25 am

compression of down with the layering of a synth jacket over a thin down jacket/sweater is minimal

quite a few people climb with micro puffies in addition to their main belay jacket

in fact quite a few gear lists for the guide services recommend a light synth puffy and a heavier down puffy for their colder climbs
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