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Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them all

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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby jesu, joy of man's desiring » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:33 pm

--

Funny how this discussion got complicated so fast, with things getting all twisted around backwards.

The climbers of my generation I consider to be humble and modest about their high-risk achievements; whereas it seems to be the current gen that crows about their sport routes and bouldering and slack-lining on the Internet and on YouTube or whatever.

Doing tricky moves above marginal stopper placements or way above skinny bolts engendered true humility, believe it or not. Non-climbers are "ignorant" of such risks, ignorant simply meaning unaware of the pertinent facts. Old school climbers saw no need to explain, nor to toot their horns endlessly. We all understood the situation, not much need to talk about it.

btw: The title of the thread was obviously meant to be ironic.

---
Last edited by jesu, joy of man's desiring on Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby McCannster » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:39 pm

Mr Leghorn wrote:
McCannster wrote:Interesting topic indeed. I guess I'm lumped into the "new generation" of climbers who put bumper stickers on their cars, wear climbing clothes, and talk about climbing to non-climbing people. I do it because I'm really psyched on climbing. It comprises a huge chunk of my life. So, in order to talk to people who I am going to be getting to know, it's kind of hard not to bring up climbing. I also just love talking about climbing in general. Climbing has changed a lot of over the years. I don't think it's a bad thing, it's just different from what it used to be.

If you changed the climbing bumper sticker, climbing talk, and climbing clothes to "Jesus fish" and "Jesus loves you" bumper stickers, and "WWJD?" T-shirts, most people would find you really, really irritating or just plain stupid.

Let's experiment:
Interesting topic indeed. I guess I'm lumped into the "new generation" of Christians/Jesus Freaks who put bumper stickers on their cars, wear Jesus approved clothes, and talk about Jesus to non-Christians. I do it because I'm really psyched on Jesus. He comprises a huge chunk of my life. So, in order to talk to people who I am going to be getting to know, it's kind of hard not to bring up Jesus. I also just love talking about Jesus in general. Jesus (loving) has changed a lot of over the years. I don't think it's a bad thing, it's just different from what it used to be.


Sheds new light on the idea of a convert, no matter what they convert to.


Difference between those Jesus freaks and climbers is that the Jesus freaks are pressuring you to become a Christian. Climbers don't really pressure others to become a climber.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby Arthur Digbee » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:08 pm

McCannster wrote:Difference between those Jesus freaks and climbers is that the Jesus freaks are pressuring you to become a Christian. Climbers don't really pressure others to become a climber.


Except on SP.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby jesu, joy of man's desiring » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:47 am

The Chief wrote:
Steve1215 wrote:Today’s generation of climbers seems different, more ordinary, like climbing to a lot of them is just another outdoor “recreation.” They walk down the street in climbing clothes and they paste climbing bumper stickers on their cars. Surely you know those people are climbers then! If they wear tech clothes to work and display climbing bumper stickers!

"Tech clothes"... That is funny. Cuz the type of climbing I do and have done since long before '74, today's "tech clothes" last one day if even a single pitch. Chinese trendy fashion statement crap with some brand label. It makes today's recreationalists look "cool". Just like all them skaters, snowboarders and other trendy folks.

Climbing has and will be the lifestyle that I chose to live back in the late 60's as young kid. Had absolutely nothing to do with the clothes or today's brand name crap that goes with recreational gig. Nothing. Hell, eating outta garbage cans, PB sandwiches, thumbing to the rocks and hills and just plain living in the dirt for weeks, now that was the deal back then. Still was for me till I finally decided to settle down (in the mountains that I love mind you) and marry my Wonderful Wife 6 years ago. I still am known for heading to local crags for three or four days and living in the dirt.

Dirt Dwellers with itchy crotches I tell ya. No longer the gig. Nope. Where's the closest Motel 6 and the evening Fillet Minion and after meal hot shower/internet connection to paste my days doings all over my Facebook page. That is today's gig.



Here is a great example of "writing from the soul"

Please, folks, read Chief's post again! It gets at the heart of the matter.

---
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby DanTheMan » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:12 am

Steve1215 wrote:The climbers of my generation I consider to be humble and modest about their high-risk achievements; whereas it seems to be the current gen that crows about their sport routes and bouldering and slack-lining on the Internet and on YouTube or whatever.

Doing tricky moves above marginal stopper placements or way above skinny bolts engendered true humility, believe it or not. Non-climbers are "ignorant" of such risks, ignorant simply meaning unaware of the pertinent facts. Old school climbers saw no need to explain, nor to toot their horns endlessly. We all understood the situation, not much need to talk about it.
---

Is that tooting I hear? I don't think it's a horn though.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby dskoon » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:24 am

DanTheMan wrote:
Steve1215 wrote:The climbers of my generation I consider to be humble and modest about their high-risk achievements; whereas it seems to be the current gen that crows about their sport routes and bouldering and slack-lining on the Internet and on YouTube or whatever.

Doing tricky moves above marginal stopper placements or way above skinny bolts engendered true humility, believe it or not. Non-climbers are "ignorant" of such risks, ignorant simply meaning unaware of the pertinent facts. Old school climbers saw no need to explain, nor to toot their horns endlessly. We all understood the situation, not much need to talk about it.
---

Is that tooting I hear? I don't think it's a horn though.


Nope, I think it's coming outa the other end.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby Damien Gildea » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:36 am

Steve1215 wrote: Funny how this discussion got ... all twisted around backwards.


Welcome to the internet!

climbers of my generation I consider to be humble and modest about their high-risk achievements


Always risky to generalize about a 'generation'. I'm sure Colin Haley does not want to be lumped in with David Lama. Maybe they just acted 'modest' because they felt compelled to by society and their peers? You may just be dressing up societal conformity as personal virtue.

...whereas it seems to be the current gen that crows about their sport routes and bouldering and slack-lining on the Internet and on YouTube or whatever


Because they can. They have the means. Older generations did not. Do you think Bachar, Long etc would have kept totally quiet if they had blogs, YouTube etc? Some of them just boasted and sprayed in quiet, around the camp, after a few beers. The media situation was quite different - you are comparing two quite different environments and expecting the inhabitants to act the same.

Old school climbers saw no need to explain, nor to toot their horns endlessly.


Again, they didn't have the means to so so publicly, and to do so face-to-face was considered unseemly. And there were always exceptions, particularly in Europe. Many climbers like Messner, Bonington, Galen Rowell and others were criticised for publicizing their climbing, with smug little sniggers amongst their so-called peers, gossiping around campfires and basecamps, scared to step out of line, when much of that criticism was just narrow-minded jealousy and insecurity.

... not much need to talk about it.


Maybe there was, and they wanted to, but they just didn't. That way they wouldn't store it up for years and come out decades later with envy and regret disguised as nostalgia? There's a lot of unrequited desire for recognition and acknowledgment out there in the 'old school'.

Most of the famous old climbers I know are surprisingly supportive and admiring of the current crop of high-achieving youngsters. They see Alex Honnold free-solo Half Dome or Moonlight Buttress and just marvel at his skill and boldness. They know their generation would have done it if they could, but they didn't, so that's that. They are gobsmacked at Colin Haley's consistent success on hard mountains, and the skill with which writes about it. He has silenced a generation of 'hard men' constantly regaling us with the reasons they didn't get stuff done.

The fact that YouTube or blogs may also be used by climbers of lesser ability is irrelevant - just ignore them. Colin's comprehensive (blogged) coverage and measured comments on the Lama/Compressor situation - at which he was on site, unlike nearly everyone else making noise - shamed many older, 'experienced' climbers drooling anger into their keyboards, parroting the catchphrases and cant of others. They'd rather hear Largo bang on endlessly about the Stonemasters, or glorify Yabo or some other self-indulgent nostalgia to numb their bitterness.

So a climber is sponsored? So what? Before anyone points the finger of so-called 'ethics' at sponsored climbers they might want to examine a bit more deeply the ethics - real world ethics - of whatever it is they do for a living. People in glass houses etc. Some think climbing should be immune, because it's different, special, unique ......and because they themselves never got sponsored.

The most accomplished of the old guys are genuinely satisfied with what they did, and what they got out of it, even if they never made a cent from it. It's the lower to middling guys with a distorted view of 'back in the day' that get all riled up about the terrible youth on the internets. The truly accomplished hard men now see young people doing things better and faster than they did it and just smile on in admiration. They don't read the websites of Seven Summiters, Highpointers or faux-dirtbag boulderers. Who would? When I talk with someone like John Evans, who made an early ascent of The Nose, the FA of the Hummingbird Ridge, the first ascent of the three highest mountains in Antarctica, the west face couloir of Huntington, 1970s climbs on Nanda Devi and Everest SW face, I'm in awe of what he did, but he's just full of praise for what good young climbers are doing now - as are people like Chris Bonington, Barry Blanchard etc.

The title of the thread was obviously meant to ironic.


Of course it was ...
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby bergs » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:55 am

You sound like an asshole and this is probably just one of the many ways you express it.

There's tougher and greater things in the world than climbing. People who risk their lives and get shot at for the sake of others.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby The Chief » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:19 am

Damien Gildea wrote:
Steve1215 wrote: Funny how this discussion got ... all twisted around backwards.


Welcome to the internet!

climbers of my generation I consider to be humble and modest about their high-risk achievements


Always risky to generalize about a 'generation'. I'm sure Colin Haley does not want to be lumped in with David Lama. Maybe they just acted 'modest' because they felt compelled to by society and their peers? You may just be dressing up societal conformity as personal virtue.

...whereas it seems to be the current gen that crows about their sport routes and bouldering and slack-lining on the Internet and on YouTube or whatever


Because they can. They have the means. Older generations did not. Do you think Bachar, Long etc would have kept totally quiet if they had blogs, YouTube etc? Some of them just boasted and sprayed in quiet, around the camp, after a few beers. The media situation was quite different - you are comparing two quite different environments and expecting the inhabitants to act the same.

Old school climbers saw no need to explain, nor to toot their horns endlessly.


Again, they didn't have the means to so so publicly, and to do so face-to-face was considered unseemly. And there were always exceptions, particularly in Europe. Many climbers like Messner, Bonington, Galen Rowell and others were criticised for publicizing their climbing, with smug little sniggers amongst their so-called peers, gossiping around campfires and basecamps, scared to step out of line, when much of that criticism was just narrow-minded jealousy and insecurity.

... not much need to talk about it.


Maybe there was, and they wanted to, but they just didn't. That way they wouldn't store it up for years and come out decades later with envy and regret disguised as nostalgia? There's a lot of unrequited desire for recognition and acknowledgment out there in the 'old school'.

Most of the famous old climbers I know are surprisingly supportive and admiring of the current crop of high-achieving youngsters. They see Alex Honnold free-solo Half Dome or Moonlight Buttress and just marvel at his skill and boldness. They know their generation would have done it if they could, but they didn't, so that's that. They are gobsmacked at Colin Haley's consistent success on hard mountains, and the skill with which writes about it. He has silenced a generation of 'hard men' constantly regaling us with the reasons they didn't get stuff done.

The fact that YouTube or blogs may also be used by climbers of lesser ability is irrelevant - just ignore them. Colin's comprehensive (blogged) coverage and measured comments on the Lama/Compressor situation - at which he was on site, unlike nearly everyone else making noise - shamed many older, 'experienced' climbers drooling anger into their keyboards, parroting the catchphrases and cant of others. They'd rather hear Largo bang on endlessly about the Stonemasters, or glorify Yabo or some other self-indulgent nostalgia to numb their bitterness.

So a climber is sponsored? So what? Before anyone points the finger of so-called 'ethics' at sponsored climbers they might want to examine a bit more deeply the ethics - real world ethics - of whatever it is they do for a living. People in glass houses etc. Some think climbing should be immune, because it's different, special, unique ......and because they themselves never got sponsored.

The most accomplished of the old guys are genuinely satisfied with what they did, and what they got out of it, even if they never made a cent from it. It's the lower to middling guys with a distorted view of 'back in the day' that get all riled up about the terrible youth on the internets. The truly accomplished hard men now see young people doing things better and faster than they did it and just smile on in admiration. They don't read the websites of Seven Summiters, Highpointers or faux-dirtbag boulderers. Who would? When I talk with someone like John Evans, who made an early ascent of The Nose, the FA of the Hummingbird Ridge, the first ascent of the three highest mountains in Antarctica, the west face couloir of Huntington, 1970s climbs on Nanda Devi and Everest SW face, I'm in awe of what he did, but he's just full of praise for what good young climbers are doing now - as are people like Chris Bonington, Barry Blanchard etc.

The title of the thread was obviously meant to ironic.


Of course it was ...



This post shows that you have never lived in the dirt and eaten outta trash cans etc, all to climb day in and day out. BTW, what tech clothes manufacture/s sponsors you and your endeavors?

Those that Steve speak of, JB and the likes of "The Stonemasters" of SoCal, did in fact live in that manner for years. And those dudes were very "territorial". Hell, when this dude showed up in the Valley and took the free ascent of Butterballs from JB, shit hit the fan the likes no one had seen before.
Image


This deal also occurred regularly in Josh and other Cali areas. Suicide ring a bell and the likes of Jim Erickson etc.

All those dudes were bonafide Dirtdwellers of CAMP 4 and J-Tree. Very special and select group of derelict rock climbers.

Here are some others that Steve speaks of. The one on the lower left never gave up the very simple and elite lifestyle...
Image


Here is another dude that lived in the dirt and survived out of trash cans and on PBers for years, just so he could climb every fking day!
Image

And this dude was the King Of the Rock Climber Derelict society of that day and one of my all time heroes....
Image
Image
Last edited by The Chief on Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby Clark_Griswold » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:22 am

McCannster wrote:
Mr Leghorn wrote:
McCannster wrote:Interesting topic indeed. I guess I'm lumped into the "new generation" of climbers who put bumper stickers on their cars, wear climbing clothes, and talk about climbing to non-climbing people. I do it because I'm really psyched on climbing. It comprises a huge chunk of my life. So, in order to talk to people who I am going to be getting to know, it's kind of hard not to bring up climbing. I also just love talking about climbing in general. Climbing has changed a lot of over the years. I don't think it's a bad thing, it's just different from what it used to be.

If you changed the climbing bumper sticker, climbing talk, and climbing clothes to "Jesus fish" and "Jesus loves you" bumper stickers, and "WWJD?" T-shirts, most people would find you really, really irritating or just plain stupid.

Let's experiment:
Interesting topic indeed. I guess I'm lumped into the "new generation" of Christians/Jesus Freaks who put bumper stickers on their cars, wear Jesus approved clothes, and talk about Jesus to non-Christians. I do it because I'm really psyched on Jesus. He comprises a huge chunk of my life. So, in order to talk to people who I am going to be getting to know, it's kind of hard not to bring up Jesus. I also just love talking about Jesus in general. Jesus (loving) has changed a lot of over the years. I don't think it's a bad thing, it's just different from what it used to be.


Sheds new light on the idea of a convert, no matter what they convert to.



Difference between those Jesus freaks and climbers is that the Jesus freaks are pressuring you to become a Christian. Climbers don't really pressure others to become a climber.

Probably true. I just thought it was pretty funny. Either way, while I see nothing wrong with talking to people about something one is passionate about, talking about it all the time isn't going to be fun for the other people. I hardly ever talk to people about what I do. Back when I used to talk about it, people thought I was an arrogant braggart. Ironic that it was OK for them to talk about their beer knowledge, but me mentioning what I had done was deemed undesirable. I think there was some jealousy involved. I don't go to mountains to impress strangers, so it's all good.
...
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby lcarreau » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:34 am

The Chief wrote:Climbing has and will be the lifestyle that I chose to live back in the late 60's as young kid. Had absolutely nothing to do with the clothes or today's brand name crap that goes with recreational gig. Nothing. Hell, eating outta garbage cans, PB sandwiches, thumbing to the rocks and hills and just plain living in the dirt for weeks ...


I can relate ! Growing up in the late 60's / early 70's was definitely where it's at. Especially those
PB sandwiches, and rolling around in the damn dirt ...

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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby SoCalHiker » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:53 am

The Chief wrote:...


Chief, although I definitely admire their passion, dedication and recklessness they showed for their "sport" you sound like everybody who did not live like that is inferior in some way. They chose their way of life, others choose a different way. As long as everybody is true to himself (or herself), there is no right or wrong.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby The Chief » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:02 am

SoCalHiker wrote:
The Chief wrote:...


Chief, although I definitely admire their passion, dedication and recklessness they showed for their "sport" you sound like everybody who did not live like that is inferior in some way. They chose their way of life, others choose a different way. As long as everybody is true to himself (or herself), there is no right or wrong.


There ya go with them perceptions....there is no right or wrong, there just is. I am proud to say that I am from that era and many that Steve speaks of, are indeed those whom I followed in thought, dedication and love for the lifestyle (not "sport") of hardass climbing on them crags.
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby jesu, joy of man's desiring » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:14 am

--
Alright. Lotta good stuff here. No school like the old school, imo.

The discussion should remain civil and rational, eh?



And those allusions to anal sphincters...being directed at yours truly, well, those are entirely uncalled for. That's the sort of thing that belongs on Craigslist "Casual Encounters" ...not on good old SummitPost!

---
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Re: Non-climbers are weak. Do not speak to them, ignore them

Postby kevin trieu » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:35 am

Steve1215 wrote:--
And those allusions to anal sphincters...being directed at yours truly, well, those are entirely uncalled for.

---

not entirely. :)
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