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Re: Coconino National Forest

Postby Alex Wood » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:19 pm

I second Sycamore Canyon. You could easily do your twenty mile hike there. Also, if you wanted to. There are plenty of long distance hiking opportunities in Marble Canyon (which is just above the Grand Canyon). Mr. Leghorn, its a shame that you don't find Northern Arizona to your liking in the winter. So far, I have too many things on my to do list in the winter that I won't be able to do in 4 weeks. Adjust as the season goes. The Coconino, in so many places is a gem in my mind (your right, some areas aren't but THATS life). You right that winter access is tricky, but you make Northern Arizona seem like a horrible place in the winter. This is not true by any means.

About your comment regarding Snowbowl, you do realize every park in Flagstaff and NAU uses the "piss water" for irrigation and that once the water goes to Snowbowl, it will go through ANOTHER filter system and then it will be diluted in a catch tank with melt water? Probably not...Also, did you know, that the proposed plan would produce A+ recycled water? Did you know that the White Mountain Apache who own and operate Sunrise currently are doing the same thing and making snow from recycled water and that they are spraying C- recycled water on their holy mountain?

-Alex
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Re: Coconino National Forest

Postby Clark_Griswold » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:42 pm

Alex Wood wrote:I second Sycamore Canyon. You could easily do your twenty mile hike there. Also, if you wanted to. There are plenty of long distance hiking opportunities in Marble Canyon (which is just above the Grand Canyon). Mr. Leghorn, its a shame that you don't find Northern Arizona to your liking in the winter. So far, I have too many things on my to do list in the winter that I won't be able to do in 4 weeks. Adjust as the season goes. The Coconino, in so many places is a gem in my mind (your right, some areas aren't but THATS life). You right that winter access is tricky, but you make Northern Arizona seem like a horrible place in the winter. This is not true by any means.

About your comment regarding Snowbowl, you do realize every park in Flagstaff and NAU uses the "piss water" for irrigation and that once the water goes to Snowbowl, it will go through ANOTHER filter system and then it will be diluted in a catch tank with melt water? Probably not...Also, did you know, that the proposed plan would produce A+ recycled water? Did you know that the White Mountain Apache who own and operate Sunrise currently are doing the same thing and making snow from recycled water and that they are spraying C- recycled water on their holy mountain?


So, even though I suggest a trip to the Grand Canyon, I hate northern Arizona? I guess you have a warped idea of what northern Arizona is. Then again, you might be confused. Let me fill you in on a secret. The Coconino National Forest, which he asked about, is NOT all of Coconino County. Sedona is one part of it, and outside of Sedona and some parts off the Rim between Camp Verde and Strawberry, access is hard this time of year due to roads being gated and locked. Adjust to the season, sure, but I'd like to see you access some of those spots when they're 30 miles in before you even get to a trailhead. Forget even talking about the mud and snow which is to be expected in most places.


I know you board Snowbowl, so don't attempt to seem impartial on that issue. I mentioned it as a feature which is a huge intrusion into a "wilderness" area, which it is, just like the city wells and the roads. You obviously have your political ax to grind on the snow making, and probably have your "reclaim the peaks" bumper sticker, too. So here it goes....They will be using reclaimed water, the key difference is that when used in parks and recreation areas in Flagstaff, it isn't in a large concentrated area that will affect the water quality in that and a broader area, and it won't affect Hart Prairie, one of the few relatively intact prairie areas around here that hasn't been degraded by over grazing. You probably also know that the city has posted signs waning people about the reclaimed water telling them NOT TO DRINK IT. You talk about the reclaimed water as if the designation actually matters? Then you must know A+ reclaimed water could just as easily be called super duper fun water, because the designation is not one which translates to something most people will understand. The reason the city posts those signs is because of the levels of nitrogen and other fecal organism which are allowed to be in "A+". I don't care about the holy mountain crap, and I don't like what the hypocritical Apaches do in Ruidoso, but that is there and NOT the San Francisco Peaks or the Kachina Peaks Wilderness. In fact, since the New Mexico Regulations are governed by a different state than those found in Arizona, there may not be any correlation between the two rating systems. Apples to oranges.

A+ still allows for detectable viruses, detectable fecal bacteria, level of nitrogen up to 10mg/L, and is not something I would want drink, let alone play on. But hey, you're for it, and can believe what you like about "A+".
http://www.azdeq.gov/environ/water/perm ... aimed.html
http://www.azsos.gov/public_services/Title_18/18-11.htm
In the report, the allowable N in mg/L is up to 5 times the mean for the Little Colorado, and I wouldn't drink that water without substantial treatment.

What is this "another filter" that Snowbowl will use? Any catchment system would require installing drains, pipes, and regrading of the ski runs, including the upper parts of Hart Prairie. And again, since I was talking about the wilderness: the expansion of Snowbowl( which will include new parking lots, new ski lifts, new ski runs, and new lodges) will remove more forest and prairie vegetation which abuts the "wilderness's" boundary. Forest removals near Hart and Agassiz lodge might not be so bad, but a huge section of the south face of the bowl will be altered/ logged and regraded for new ski runs and a new lift. That ought to really make for a great wilderness experience. So, I digress back to my original statements on the Kachina Peaks and Snowbowl, "The Coconino is a forest with wilderness in name only. The San Francisco Peaks, for example, with it's Kachina Peaks Wilderness, has a ski area (which is expanding and will be using piss to make snow), several roads, city wells (with loud diesel pumps when running) and an extensive history of grazing and over grazing ( and they are going to start grazing again). Hardly a wilderness experience."

Funny how your politically minded ax skipped over the other parts and only concentrated on the piss comment, which I stand by. It's loaded and it expresses my feeling on the matter. He never asked about it and I only mentioned it to further exemplify my feelings of the Coconino's Wildernesses not being more than a wilderness in name. Gee Alex, why so quick to attack one small comment on the hollowness of the wilderness, but you completely ignore grazing/over grazing, roads, wells with loud diesel pumps, or the later fire suppression comment? You don't need to answer, I already know why. Don't post things that make it seem like you know all the details and the Snowbowl snow making is a harmless event which is not dissimilar from more snow falling. Comparing it to practices in other locations does not change what will happen here, or make it less significant.
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Re: Coconino National Forest

Postby lcarreau » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:45 am

Excuse me, but me thinks the dude (OP) from Germany isn't concerned in the least about ALL this crap.

He was just asking about some cool places to go, religion and politics ASIDE.

(1) Grand Canyon

(2) Sycamore Wilderness

(3) Superstition Mountain

(4) Lagos, Arizona

(5) Sedona - only if you don't mess with the Vegans ..

Well, I hope the man from Germany finds this all to be a Learning Experience. :D
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Re: Coconino National Forest

Postby Clark_Griswold » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:03 am

No, no, he definitely wanted to see his thread turn into a hijacked thread where one person has to attack someone else for making a passing remark about forest management, and the first person then has to go on a tirade demonstrating how the other person is an idiot with and ax to grind. I thought he decided on the Superstitions a long time ago?
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Re: Coconino National Forest

Postby lcarreau » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:29 am

Mr Leghorn wrote:No, no, he definitely wanted to see his thread turn into a hijacked thread where one person has to attack someone else for making a passing remark about forest management, and the first person then has to go on a tirade demonstrating how the other person is an idiot with and ax to grind. I thought he decided on the Superstitions a long time ago?


No, he was NOT (yet) completely decided, and was probably waiting for someone to TELL him where to go ..

Sorry, but I have a gig to do (in Sedona) with some long-haired "drum-beaters" performing at the Boynton Canyon TH and the Back-o-Beyond Tavern.

"Klaatu barada nikto ..."

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Re: Coconino National Forest

Postby Alex Wood » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:00 am

Mr Leghorn wrote:
Alex Wood wrote:I second Sycamore Canyon. You could easily do your twenty mile hike there. Also, if you wanted to. There are plenty of long distance hiking opportunities in Marble Canyon (which is just above the Grand Canyon). Mr. Leghorn, its a shame that you don't find Northern Arizona to your liking in the winter. So far, I have too many things on my to do list in the winter that I won't be able to do in 4 weeks. Adjust as the season goes. The Coconino, in so many places is a gem in my mind (your right, some areas aren't but THATS life). You right that winter access is tricky, but you make Northern Arizona seem like a horrible place in the winter. This is not true by any means.

About your comment regarding Snowbowl, you do realize every park in Flagstaff and NAU uses the "piss water" for irrigation and that once the water goes to Snowbowl, it will go through ANOTHER filter system and then it will be diluted in a catch tank with melt water? Probably not...Also, did you know, that the proposed plan would produce A+ recycled water? Did you know that the White Mountain Apache who own and operate Sunrise currently are doing the same thing and making snow from recycled water and that they are spraying C- recycled water on their holy mountain?


So, even though I suggest a trip to the Grand Canyon, I hate northern Arizona? I guess you have a warped idea of what northern Arizona is. Then again, you might be confused. Let me fill you in on a secret. The Coconino National Forest, which he asked about, is NOT all of Coconino County. Sedona is one part of it, and outside of Sedona and some parts off the Rim between Camp Verde and Strawberry, access is hard this time of year due to roads being gated and locked. Adjust to the season, sure, but I'd like to see you access some of those spots when they're 30 miles in before you even get to a trailhead. Forget even talking about the mud and snow which is to be expected in most places.


I know you board Snowbowl, so don't attempt to seem impartial on that issue. I mentioned it as a feature which is a huge intrusion into a "wilderness" area, which it is, just like the city wells and the roads. You obviously have your political ax to grind on the snow making, and probably have your "reclaim the peaks" bumper sticker, too. So here it goes....They will be using reclaimed water, the key difference is that when used in parks and recreation areas in Flagstaff, it isn't in a large concentrated area that will affect the water quality in that and a broader area, and it won't affect Hart Prairie, one of the few relatively intact prairie areas around here that hasn't been degraded by over grazing. You probably also know that the city has posted signs waning people about the reclaimed water telling them NOT TO DRINK IT. You talk about the reclaimed water as if the designation actually matters? Then you must know A+ reclaimed water could just as easily be called super duper fun water, because the designation is not one which translates to something most people will understand. The reason the city posts those signs is because of the levels of nitrogen and other fecal organism which are allowed to be in "A+". I don't care about the holy mountain crap, and I don't like what the hypocritical Apaches do in Ruidoso, but that is there and NOT the San Francisco Peaks or the Kachina Peaks Wilderness. In fact, since the New Mexico Regulations are governed by a different state than those found in Arizona, there may not be any correlation between the two rating systems. Apples to oranges.

A+ still allows for detectable viruses, detectable fecal bacteria, level of nitrogen up to 10mg/L, and is not something I would want drink, let alone play on. But hey, you're for it, and can believe what you like about "A+".
http://www.azdeq.gov/environ/water/perm ... aimed.html
http://www.azsos.gov/public_services/Title_18/18-11.htm
In the report, the allowable N in mg/L is up to 5 times the mean for the Little Colorado, and I wouldn't drink that water without substantial treatment.

What is this "another filter" that Snowbowl will use? Any catchment system would require installing drains, pipes, and regrading of the ski runs, including the upper parts of Hart Prairie. And again, since I was talking about the wilderness: the expansion of Snowbowl( which will include new parking lots, new ski lifts, new ski runs, and new lodges) will remove more forest and prairie vegetation which abuts the "wilderness's" boundary. Forest removals near Hart and Agassiz lodge might not be so bad, but a huge section of the south face of the bowl will be altered/ logged and regraded for new ski runs and a new lift. That ought to really make for a great wilderness experience. So, I digress back to my original statements on the Kachina Peaks and Snowbowl, "The Coconino is a forest with wilderness in name only. The San Francisco Peaks, for example, with it's Kachina Peaks Wilderness, has a ski area (which is expanding and will be using piss to make snow), several roads, city wells (with loud diesel pumps when running) and an extensive history of grazing and over grazing ( and they are going to start grazing again). Hardly a wilderness experience."

Funny how your politically minded ax skipped over the other parts and only concentrated on the piss comment, which I stand by. It's loaded and it expresses my feeling on the matter. He never asked about it and I only mentioned it to further exemplify my feelings of the Coconino's Wildernesses not being more than a wilderness in name. Gee Alex, why so quick to attack one small comment on the hollowness of the wilderness, but you completely ignore grazing/over grazing, roads, wells with loud diesel pumps, or the later fire suppression comment? You don't need to answer, I already know why. Don't post things that make it seem like you know all the details and the Snowbowl snow making is a harmless event which is not dissimilar from more snow falling. Comparing it to practices in other locations does not change what will happen here, or make it less significant.


Okay, so maybe I didn't see that you mentioned the Grand Canyon. My bad there. Thanks for straightening up the geography of Northern Arizona. I really didn't know where the Coconino National Forest was. I acknowledged that fact that the Coconino National Forest has access issue in the winter and that why I don't go to those places in the winter and spring. Thats simply, there are other things to do. Only part I was picking up on was how you weren't satisfied with the area, which I may have interpreted wrongly.

I ski at Snowbowl, thank you very much...nice try though. I don't have one of those stickers either. The reclaimed water doesn't have a large concentration when used in the city? Well if used in all parks and at NAU in its original concentration (which I don't know if thats what they do or not), then that is still alot of that reclaimed water going into the Rio de Flag. That is going to effect the surrounding areas. Now as I said before, the water will go through a filter, diluted with runoff for snowmelt, and then will be diluted as the water runs off the mountain. I am no hydrologist, but it sounds like when the runoff from the melted snow it will have lower concentrations then the reclaimed water used in town. Hart Prarie may have not been impacted by cattle yet, but I am sure its been impacted by humans now. I don't know what Snowbowl is going to do...I don't usually eat the snow, but they may put a don't snow sign...Problem solved there. A little help on geography, Sunrise is in Arizona so I do believe we are comparing apples to apples.

I don't know much about the filter, but I know its another filter to filter the A+ waste water. So maybe it makes it A++ water? I really don't know. Well a big flaw to what you have been saying is that Snowbowl is not expanding off its lands it has now. Its not encroaching upon the Kachina Peaks Wilderness Area! New runs will be put well inside the resort bounds and I haven't heard the plan on parking, but if that were to expand, that could easily be on National Forest Land, not on the Wilderness Area. The Snowbowl is entirely off the Kachina Peaks Wilderness Area. Sure they share a boundary, but I think it was in 1984 when the Wilderness Area was created it sealed the bounds of Snowbowl in. If you ask any resident or anybody that skis alot at Snowbowl, they will tell you that one of the coolest thing about Snowbowl is the fact that it can't expand anymore. Sure they can develop the land already inside their special permit area and they have the right. Sure it will clear cut trees and scar certain areas, but thats what ski resorts do. Its not like there aren't any runs up there right now that you can't see. Utilizing 50+ more acres of their land for more ski-able terrain won't destroy the mountains. The city wells and roads are also outside of the Wilderness Area. Aside from the old Weatherford Road, there really isn't that much wrong about the peaks as far as a Wilderness Area goes in my mind. The only thing that I think the Coconino NF has done to screw over Kachina Peaks Wilderness Area is the closure of Agassiz. But thats a debate in its own.

Let me know if I missed any of the your questions. This only issue with Snowbowl is definitely a sticky subject.

-Alex
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Re: Coconino National Forest

Postby Clark_Griswold » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:36 pm

Alex Wood wrote:...
-Alex

I agree with Icarreau, if you want to keep going, I'll respond in off-route and we can continue this further.
what-is-wilderness-kachina-peaks-debate-t57871.html

Simon, if you're still reading this thread, have fun on your trip and don't let some jaded locals (me) dissuade you from visiting where you want to. It looks like it might be really warm in Sedona this weekend, if you are still considering that spot.
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Re: Coconino National Forest

Postby lcarreau » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:31 pm

Lionel wrote:

It looks like it might be really warm in Sedona this weekend, if you are still considering that spot.


I stand in perfect agreement with the "Lionel Man."

If you want to TRULY avoid the crowds without having to DANCE ON THE CEILING,
then I suggest you completely bypass Oak Creek Canyon. It can really fill up with people.

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Re: Coconino National Forest

Postby SimonRidgewalker » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:58 pm

Hi all,
I just returned to Berlin and had a splendid time in beautiful Arizona. Eventually, I could start already on Friday afternoon in Phoenix and had to be back there Monday evening. The weather could not have been better for this time of year everybody said. This is what I did:

Friday
Superstition Mountains: Left the car at First water Trailhead and hiked on the Dutchman Trail til sundown. Put up the tent somewhere around black top mesa.

Saturday: Stood up at dawn and made a 10-mile loop back to the car through boulder canyon. Checked in at the Lost Dutchman State park campground, had some lunch and went up Flatiron on the Siphon Draw trail. It was especially beautiful to go a bit further down on the plateau, there are stunning views on the other side, towards Miner's Needle etc. Finished the scrambling part of the trail back just in time before it got dark.

Sunday: Drove to Sedona :lol: I know what you mean now. It's incredibly beautiful situated but of course way too crowded. I followed your advice and went directly to Sycamore canyon. Hiked on the Dogie Trail and since I camped directly at the Trailhead I could enjoy the sunset on the red rocks in the canyon. Although it was a Sunday with perfect weather there were only very few people on the trail. Some went in very late with backpacks and looked like they were doing a multi-day tour. No singing and dancing there :wink:

Monday: Drove to Grand Canyon. Passing through Sedona and Oak creek canyon as early as 7 a.m. made it appear just peaceful - the tourists were still sleeping or having pancakes. Later, on the higher elevations there was still snow along the road. Together with Humphrey's a scenery that made driving a pleasure. At Grand Canyon I walked the rim a while and hiked down South Kaibab trail to Cedar ridge and back. I will not try to express what I felt, least of all in a foreign language. It was definitely much more of an experience than I had expected. Went back to Phoenix and on the way had dinner in Flagstaff which I found to be a very friendly and interesting town.

Thanks again for all the helpful tips and of course I hope to come back some day with more time.
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Re: Coconino National Forest

Postby lcarreau » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:10 am

SimonRidgewalker wrote:I just returned to Berlin and had a splendid time in beautiful Arizona.


I am very glad you had a good time. AZ is such a BEAUTIFUL state!

SimonRidgewalker wrote:The weather could not have been better for this time of year everybody said.


Everybody on SP's Forums refers to it as being a cesspool of heat, but I always found the temps to be quite comfortable.

SimonRidgewalker wrote:No singing and dancing there..


Try the "Museum Club" (in Flagstaff) on a Friday night. If you're LUCKY, you might see 'Lionel Richie' there !!!

SimonRidgewalker wrote:Thanks again for all the helpful tips and of course I hope to come back some day with more time.


Hey, don't mention it. Having FUN is what it's ALL about. :D

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