Self-arrest while wearing crampons

Tips, tricks, workouts, injury advice.
User Avatar
Mescalito345

 
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:32 pm
Thanked: 6 times in 3 posts

Self-arrest while wearing crampons

by Mescalito345 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:56 am

Check out the comments about this Ed Viesturs video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bosa_P1a_Dw

Seems like there's a lot of debate about "toes digging in" vs "toes up". If I'm sliding down a steep slope at 20 mph, my preference is "toes up", but not everyone agrees.

User Avatar
Mescalito345

 
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:32 pm
Thanked: 6 times in 3 posts

Re: Self-arrest while wearing crampons

by Mescalito345 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:30 am

If you're sliding at a high rate of speed on an icy slope, and then you kick in with your crampons, isn't it likely that you'd flip over?

User Avatar
etai101

 
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:02 pm
Thanked: 12 times in 5 posts

Re: Self-arrest while wearing crampons

by etai101 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:45 pm

freedome of the hills disagrees with viesturs.
i usualy tend to agree with the "bible" as too emergency techniques.
all other invetions as long as they dont have anything to with saving my life i except.

User Avatar
Mountainjeff

 
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:55 pm
Thanked: 12 times in 8 posts

Re: Self-arrest while wearing crampons

by Mountainjeff » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:50 pm

It does not appear that anyone in the video was wearing crampons. I am usually willing to dig my toes in if I don't have crampons on. Typical PNW summer snow is loose enough to not cause a flip.

User Avatar
MoapaPk

 
Posts: 7780
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 7:42 pm
Thanked: 787 times in 519 posts

Re: Self-arrest while wearing crampons

by MoapaPk » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:40 pm


User Avatar
Mescalito345

 
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:32 pm
Thanked: 6 times in 3 posts

Re: Self-arrest while wearing crampons

by Mescalito345 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:05 am

In the Jason Martin article on the AAI website, he describes the three "schools of thought" on this topic. Seems like the second school is the most reasonable (kick in when not wearing crampons, feet up when wearing crampons).

User Avatar
rockymtnclimber

 
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:48 am
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post

Re: Self-arrest while wearing crampons

by rockymtnclimber » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:48 am

Mountainjeff wrote:It does not appear that anyone in the video was wearing crampons. I am usually willing to dig my toes in if I don't have crampons on. Typical PNW summer snow is loose enough to not cause a flip.


I'll second this on all accounts. I think the biggest key to note here is that It's all going to depend on the equipment you are using, and the conditions at the time. I self-arrested after a 2000ft glissade down the Corridor about Camp Schurman, and I dug in my toes, crampons and all. But that day, my crampons were so balled up and the snow so soft, that it didn't really matter than I had them on.

The answer to the debate: there is no one right answer - just a right answer for that day and time. Only experience will help you out there.

User Avatar
Mescalito345

 
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:32 pm
Thanked: 6 times in 3 posts

Re: Self-arrest while wearing crampons

by Mescalito345 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:34 am

I agree, when the snow is soft, kicking in with your feet is no problem. For the subject of this post, maybe I should have said "self-arrest on steep hard-pack snow slopes (>35 degrees), while wearing crampons".

User Avatar
SKI

 
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:52 pm
Thanked: 47 times in 27 posts

Re: Self-arrest while wearing crampons

by SKI » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:16 pm

I think that the answer here is simple:

Don't Fall

Falling is in poor style and is therefore only reserved for the jello-legged like Betty-Spaghetti here:

Image

User Avatar
phlipdascrip

 
Posts: 221
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 5:13 pm
Thanked: 23 times in 16 posts

Re: Self-arrest while wearing crampons

by phlipdascrip » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:07 pm

Mescalito345 wrote:In the Jason Martin article on the AAI website, he describes the three "schools of thought" on this topic. Seems like the second school is the most reasonable (kick in when not wearing crampons, feet up when wearing crampons).


If you are on hard, solid ice or neve, then it's usually better to kick your feet up into the air. If you are on semi-solid terrain with occasional harder sections, then it's probably better to kick your toes in. This "it depends" approach isn't what most people want to hear. They want to hear a black and white answer; in part because a black and white answer is easier to remember in the heat of the moment.

User Avatar
Rick Kent

 
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon May 27, 2002 12:35 pm
Thanked: 8 times in 6 posts

Re: Self-arrest while wearing crampons

by Rick Kent » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:28 am

Agreed. It depends on the conditions, rate of speed, etc. Trouble is, when you take a sudden slide, you're usually not thinking calmly. Thus, you're more likely to react frantically and kick your toes in. It's best to arrest as quickly as possible but as soon as you pick up speed you run the risk of snapping your ankles or flipping if the snow is hard.

User Avatar
jspeigl

 
Posts: 182
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:13 am
Thanked: 5 times in 5 posts

Re: Self-arrest while wearing crampons

by jspeigl » Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:57 am

rockymtnclimber wrote:I self-arrested after a 2000ft glissade down the Corridor about Camp Schurman, and I dug in my toes, crampons and all.

Cardinal rule #1.
http://alpineinstitute.blogspot.com/2008/08/dangers-of-glissading.html

The following user would like to thank jspeigl for this post
artrock23

User Avatar
Mescalito345

 
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:32 pm
Thanked: 6 times in 3 posts

Re: Self-arrest while wearing crampons

by Mescalito345 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:07 am

In the first AAI link posted above (by MoapaPk), there was the following comment from a climber named Michael:

"As someone who suffered a severe ankle fracture resulting from a ~150ft slide down a 45deg+ pitched couloir, I can attest that had I kept my crampons elevated during my attempted self arrest, I would have not likely fractured my ankle in the process of being flipped."

User Avatar
Grampahawk

 
Posts: 540
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:42 pm
Thanked: 8 times in 5 posts

Re: Self-arrest while wearing crampons

by Grampahawk » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:21 pm

Mescalito345 wrote:In the first AAI link posted above (by MoapaPk), there was the following comment from a climber named Michael:

"As someone who suffered a severe ankle fracture resulting from a ~150ft slide down a 45deg+ pitched couloir, I can attest that had I kept my crampons elevated during my attempted self arrest, I would have not likely fractured my ankle in the process of being flipped."


Thus, the definitive answer to the question...

User Avatar
MoapaPk

 
Posts: 7780
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 7:42 pm
Thanked: 787 times in 519 posts

Re: Self-arrest while wearing crampons

by MoapaPk » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:40 pm

Mescalito345 wrote:In the first AAI link posted above (by MoapaPk), there was the following comment from a climber named Michael:

"As someone who suffered a severe ankle fracture resulting from a ~150ft slide down a 45deg+ pitched couloir, I can attest that had I kept my crampons elevated during my attempted self arrest, I would have not likely fractured my ankle in the process of being flipped."


I wonder if he did a controlled study.

Next

Return to Technique and Training

 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests