by Alex Wood » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:19 pm
by lcarreau » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:45 am
by lcarreau » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:29 am
Mr Leghorn wrote:No, no, he definitely wanted to see his thread turn into a hijacked thread where one person has to attack someone else for making a passing remark about forest management, and the first person then has to go on a tirade demonstrating how the other person is an idiot with and ax to grind. I thought he decided on the Superstitions a long time ago?
by Alex Wood » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:00 am
Mr Leghorn wrote:Alex Wood wrote:I second Sycamore Canyon. You could easily do your twenty mile hike there. Also, if you wanted to. There are plenty of long distance hiking opportunities in Marble Canyon (which is just above the Grand Canyon). Mr. Leghorn, its a shame that you don't find Northern Arizona to your liking in the winter. So far, I have too many things on my to do list in the winter that I won't be able to do in 4 weeks. Adjust as the season goes. The Coconino, in so many places is a gem in my mind (your right, some areas aren't but THATS life). You right that winter access is tricky, but you make Northern Arizona seem like a horrible place in the winter. This is not true by any means.
About your comment regarding Snowbowl, you do realize every park in Flagstaff and NAU uses the "piss water" for irrigation and that once the water goes to Snowbowl, it will go through ANOTHER filter system and then it will be diluted in a catch tank with melt water? Probably not...Also, did you know, that the proposed plan would produce A+ recycled water? Did you know that the White Mountain Apache who own and operate Sunrise currently are doing the same thing and making snow from recycled water and that they are spraying C- recycled water on their holy mountain?
So, even though I suggest a trip to the Grand Canyon, I hate northern Arizona? I guess you have a warped idea of what northern Arizona is. Then again, you might be confused. Let me fill you in on a secret. The Coconino National Forest, which he asked about, is NOT all of Coconino County. Sedona is one part of it, and outside of Sedona and some parts off the Rim between Camp Verde and Strawberry, access is hard this time of year due to roads being gated and locked. Adjust to the season, sure, but I'd like to see you access some of those spots when they're 30 miles in before you even get to a trailhead. Forget even talking about the mud and snow which is to be expected in most places.
I know you board Snowbowl, so don't attempt to seem impartial on that issue. I mentioned it as a feature which is a huge intrusion into a "wilderness" area, which it is, just like the city wells and the roads. You obviously have your political ax to grind on the snow making, and probably have your "reclaim the peaks" bumper sticker, too. So here it goes....They will be using reclaimed water, the key difference is that when used in parks and recreation areas in Flagstaff, it isn't in a large concentrated area that will affect the water quality in that and a broader area, and it won't affect Hart Prairie, one of the few relatively intact prairie areas around here that hasn't been degraded by over grazing. You probably also know that the city has posted signs waning people about the reclaimed water telling them NOT TO DRINK IT. You talk about the reclaimed water as if the designation actually matters? Then you must know A+ reclaimed water could just as easily be called super duper fun water, because the designation is not one which translates to something most people will understand. The reason the city posts those signs is because of the levels of nitrogen and other fecal organism which are allowed to be in "A+". I don't care about the holy mountain crap, and I don't like what the hypocritical Apaches do in Ruidoso, but that is there and NOT the San Francisco Peaks or the Kachina Peaks Wilderness. In fact, since the New Mexico Regulations are governed by a different state than those found in Arizona, there may not be any correlation between the two rating systems. Apples to oranges.
A+ still allows for detectable viruses, detectable fecal bacteria, level of nitrogen up to 10mg/L, and is not something I would want drink, let alone play on. But hey, you're for it, and can believe what you like about "A+".
http://www.azdeq.gov/environ/water/perm ... aimed.html
In the report, the allowable N in mg/L is up to 5 times the mean for the Little Colorado, and I wouldn't drink that water without substantial treatment.
What is this "another filter" that Snowbowl will use? Any catchment system would require installing drains, pipes, and regrading of the ski runs, including the upper parts of Hart Prairie. And again, since I was talking about the wilderness: the expansion of Snowbowl( which will include new parking lots, new ski lifts, new ski runs, and new lodges) will remove more forest and prairie vegetation which abuts the "wilderness's" boundary. Forest removals near Hart and Agassiz lodge might not be so bad, but a huge section of the south face of the bowl will be altered/ logged and regraded for new ski runs and a new lift. That ought to really make for a great wilderness experience. So, I digress back to my original statements on the Kachina Peaks and Snowbowl, "The Coconino is a forest with wilderness in name only. The San Francisco Peaks, for example, with it's Kachina Peaks Wilderness, has a ski area (which is expanding and will be using piss to make snow), several roads, city wells (with loud diesel pumps when running) and an extensive history of grazing and over grazing ( and they are going to start grazing again). Hardly a wilderness experience."
Funny how your politically minded ax skipped over the other parts and only concentrated on the piss comment, which I stand by. It's loaded and it expresses my feeling on the matter. He never asked about it and I only mentioned it to further exemplify my feelings of the Coconino's Wildernesses not being more than a wilderness in name. Gee Alex, why so quick to attack one small comment on the hollowness of the wilderness, but you completely ignore grazing/over grazing, roads, wells with loud diesel pumps, or the later fire suppression comment? You don't need to answer, I already know why. Don't post things that make it seem like you know all the details and the Snowbowl snow making is a harmless event which is not dissimilar from more snow falling. Comparing it to practices in other locations does not change what will happen here, or make it less significant.
by lcarreau » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:31 pm
It looks like it might be really warm in Sedona this weekend, if you are still considering that spot.
by SimonRidgewalker » Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:58 pm
by lcarreau » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:10 am
SimonRidgewalker wrote:I just returned to Berlin and had a splendid time in beautiful Arizona.
SimonRidgewalker wrote:The weather could not have been better for this time of year everybody said.
SimonRidgewalker wrote:No singing and dancing there..
SimonRidgewalker wrote:Thanks again for all the helpful tips and of course I hope to come back some day with more time.
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