Planning Zion Trip, Input?

by **Kenrick** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:30 pm

There's 8 of us going in mid August for 5 days. No Canyoneering Experience.

Day 1) Subway bottom-top. (I've done the subway before in may but had to turn around at the entrance due to high water)
Day 2) Orderville Canyon. Does anyone do this bottom-top? I think we'll have 2 cars so shouldn't be a big deal if not.
Day 3) undecided.. perhaps spend some more time in the narrows, and really want to complete Hidden Canyon bottom to top. Last Spring my friend and I made it past the 100 ft rappel but didn't realize how close we were to the end and since it was getting dark, we turned back.
Day 4) Possibly Water Canyon at Canaan Mt. Haven't heard much on it but it looks really good to me.
Day 5) Kanarra Creek

Looking for feedback if there's any hikes you think would be better or if you would change anything on. Thanks!

by **A-Lex** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:49 pm

What do you mean by bottom to top? Like you will be climbing up the canyon as opposed to rappelling/hiking down it?

by **Kenrick** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 12:21 am

Yes, climbing up.

by **MoapaPk** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:15 am

Kenrick wrote:There's 8 of us going in mid August for 5 days. No Canyoneering Experience.

Day 1) Subway bottom-top. (I've done the subway before in may but had to turn around at the entrance due to high water)
Day 2) Orderville Canyon. Does anyone do this bottom-top? I think we'll have 2 cars so shouldn't be a big deal if not.

Why bottom to top?

Subway has some slimy up-climbing if you are going "backwards" -- this was the way the DPS used to do South Guardian Angel. Orderville was done both ways by Kelsey, but one upclimb is tricky is there is any flow, and two involve flared chimneys that are probably tough on short people.

by **lcarreau** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:24 am

MoapaPk wrote:
... and two involve flared chimneys that are probably tough on short people.

by **rockymtnclimber** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:42 am

So, after spending a fair amount of time over 2 summers in Zion, this is the first I've ever heard of doing canyons backwards. Really? Is it just to do something different?

I'm not saying that I'm knocking the idea. I've just never heard anyone suggest it.

by **MoapaPk** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:46 am

lcarreau wrote:
MoapaPk wrote:
... and two involve flared chimneys that are probably tough on short people.

I'm short! I know that is was a bit tricky coming down without a belay, and I just chose to drop the last few feet. There are bolts at the the top of all significant drops in Orderville and Subway, and they don't do much good when you are looking up at them from the bottom!

by **Stu Brandel** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:22 pm

If some in your group have never been to Zion before, you really should take them up Angel's Landing, Progeny Peak, 6460 (Lost Peak) or some other easy summit with spectacular views. Angels Landing is mega popular, but if you go very early or very late in afternoon you can get some privacy.

Water Canyon is beautiful but does not compare with the incredible Narrows or Orderville, and is a bit out of the way from Zion. Doing the 17 mile top down Narrows is a hike of a lifetime but be very prepared for bad footing. But going from the bottom up can also be a thrill.

I also did the Subway bottom up and had to turn back right at the entrance. My 11 year old hurt his knee on one of the slippery cascades.

by **MoapaPk** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:15 pm

OK, maybe I'm getting the picture now. You can do Subway by walking up river to the last part (most downstream) that actually looks like a "subway;" I don't think that requires any permit, and is basically a walk in the stream, with a few small cascades to negotiate. You can do a similar thing for Orderville Canyon -- go upstream in the narrows (from parking) till it veers off on the right (east) and head up until the first significant obstacle. There used to be a sign in Orderville, warning those coming from the Narrows, that it was about to get rough.

Be aware of the permit system in Zion. As mentioned above, the Narrows top-to-bottom is a very neat experience, requiring no canyoneering experience, and little gear other than sticky water shoes and neoprene socks (that you can rent at ZAC), trekking poles (or a wooden staff), and watertight protection for critical gear. It is easy to do in a day if you are in shape and have a shuttle (you can use the Zion bus system to get you back to the campsites). It's about 16 miles, and not real easy walking, so don't take it lightly.

by **Stu Brandel** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:32 pm

Subway bottom up also requires a permit. 4 years ago there was a ranger near the end checking for them!

by **MoapaPk** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:36 pm

Sbrande wrote:Subway bottom up also requires a permit. 4 years ago there was a ranger near the end checking for them!

Right you are!
http://www.nps.gov/zion/planyourvisit/l ... subway.htm

by **zachary_dc** » Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:24 pm

I just got back from a week in the park. Many of the canyons were still closed but we ended up getting into the Keyhole and Pine Creek Canyons. If you have rappelling experience I would recommend them both, especially Pine Creek. It was amazing.

The subway from the bottom is alright but the majority of the time is just spent hiking along the river. You dont actually start to get into the canyon until the very end of the hike. Maybe worth doing once.

by **Kenrick** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:54 pm

Sbrande wrote:If some in your group have never been to Zion before, you really should take them up Angel's Landing, Progeny Peak, 6460 (Lost Peak) or some other easy summit with spectacular views. Angels Landing is mega popular, but if you go very early or very late in afternoon you can get some privacy.

Water Canyon is beautiful but does not compare with the incredible Narrows or Orderville, and is a bit out of the way from Zion. Doing the 17 mile top down Narrows is a hike of a lifetime but be very prepared for bad footing. But going from the bottom up can also be a thrill.

I also did the Subway bottom up and had to turn back right at the entrance. My 11 year old hurt his knee on one of the slippery cascades.

I'm kind of sick of angel's landing... it's cool to do for the, I climbed angel's landing factor, but i'm more into scenery and challenge over elevation views.

Last May I did subway bottom up and we had to turn around at the entrance due to really high water levels.

I've convinced my dad to do Ovderville top-bottom, and possibly the full Narrows. It's my uncle i have to convince to do Subway top-bottom since right now he's the only one with actual rock climbing experience. I'm gonna try to get a few of us whipper-snappers to get into rock climbing this summer before we go so he'll feel comfortable doing subway top-bottom.

by **Kenrick** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:55 pm

zachary_dc wrote:I just got back from a week in the park. Many of the canyons were still closed but we ended up getting into the Keyhole and Pine Creek Canyons. If you have rappelling experience I would recommend them both, especially Pine Creek. It was amazing.

The subway from the bottom is alright but the majority of the time is just spent hiking along the river. You dont actually start to get into the canyon until the very end of the hike. Maybe worth doing once.

Only one person in the group has repelling experience... so I intend to change that this summer... Next year is when i want start doing Slot Canyons.

by **MoapaPk** » Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:02 pm

Kenrick wrote:
I've convinced my dad to do Ovderville top-bottom, and possibly the full Narrows. It's my uncle i have to convince to do Subway top-bottom since right now he's the only one with actual rock climbing experience. I'm gonna try to get a few of us whipper-snappers to get into rock climbing this summer before we go so he'll feel comfortable doing subway top-bottom.

Subway top-to-bottom was the first place that I had rappelled in 32 years. Most of the raps are very short, and there are bolted anchors. People have done it all with just handlines, and you can actually downclimb about 200' (horizontal) before the last rap, avoiding the rap altogether. However, one of the drops is nearly vertical, and is tough to do with a handline unless one has fairly good upper body strength.

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