x15x15 wrote:if you own a car, it must be registered. finding an address is quite simple, and not too expensive. you have the right to be anonymous, but you better be a hermit. public records are public records. For just a small fee, I can find any registered owners' address too, just need a license plate number...

this is still so stupid that this is an issue. and it is unfuckingbelievable that people think the private property owners need to do anything about it. kind of weird actually...

Not weird atal. It is the age of the "entitled" where many believe that they are indeed entitled to do as they wish, regardless of the rights of others. Who gives a shit if it is PP. The owners of that said property owe it to us to succumb to our access needs. It is their responsibility to do so and not ours to respect their rights. We are climbers by god.

This prevailing arrogance on the part of the climbing community is going to get you absolutely no where. It is the climbers that need to change their self-righteous attitudes, not the DWA. Until ya'll get that and start acting on it, this will get far worse way before anything gets better, for ya'll. Not the DWA.

lefty wrote: Does the DWA have the access to Department of Motor Vehicles records or the right to access such private records as a public agency?

If not, perhaps they asked and received the information from the County Sheriff's Department.

Bingo! In other words, the RCSD will enforce the law and the rights of the LO.

Note: The Snow Creek route page has been changed in an effort to respect the DWA's private property.

Sam Page wrote:Note: The Snow Creek route page has been changed in an effort to respect the DWA's private property.

Thats a good start.

attached a gpx file in my tr from last year using the legal route

When and how did the DWA acquire the land? Their website says they didn't enter the retail water market until 1968 when the San Jac Wilderness was created in 1964. I understand and respect private property, but I don't think it's acceptable for a company to own land inside a designated wilderness area and completely forbid access.

drpw wrote:When and how did the DWA acquire the land? Their website says they didn't enter the retail water market until 1968 when the San Jac Wilderness was created in 1964. I understand and respect private property, but I don't think it's acceptable for a company to own land inside a designated wilderness area and completely forbid access.

It has been privately owned since before the 1900's and then sold to the DWA in the late 50's.

Thus it has been in private hands long before SJW was ever designated.

Moot point.


PS: There are many privately owned sections of land nestled within different designated Wilderness Fed Lands throughout the United States. This is one of many.

Access on private lands is exactly that - the local land manager giving you the permission, under the premise you will behave maturely and minimize impact, to use their land. By doing this they are putting their asses on the line relative to liability.

If the DWA does not want you to use their land, it is their right to restrict you from using it. Were it on public land, then there is a completely different set of rules and access issues to contend with there. Fortunately, on private land the answers about access are very straightforward and rarely change. Unfortunately, not following the Land Manager's directives about not accessing their terrain constitutes trespassing, and is counter-intuitive toward gaining legal and proper access to the area generally.

Look at the rules of climbing at the Owens River Gorge, for example. If people did not obey those rules, the LM's would restrict access. Is it right? Is it wrong? Who cares, it is private property and those who own it, well, own the land.

Access is everyone's battle, from regulation to complete restriction of access in areas, and following LM's instructions, while allowing respected organizations such as the Access Fund, or highly motivated and connected individuals like Rick (case in point the whole Williamson dilemma which he greatly assisted in) handle the role of advocate. Otherwise, follow the rules or risk ruining any potential progress for everybody.

Again, how these organizations (DWA near SJW or LADWP in the Owens Valley) acquired their land is not relevant at this point. They own it, and we have to deal with their rules and regs. I do not have firsthand experience with the DWA, but with LADWP and Southern California Edison, both of these groups have done a great job allowing and cooperating with the climbers using their land.

Any way you slice it, it's quite a gig they have going on there. They purchase a parcel where the forks of the watershed convene, then sell all the "free" water to their customers. My question is this: who owns all that snow that lies above their property, the stuff that melts and fills their water tanks? do the owners of said snow need money? Hmmm, reminds me of LA buying all the rights to the Owens Valley water.

I'm not sure section 33 is in the SJ wilderness...it seems to lie just outside the border

Ze wrote:I'm not sure section 33 is in the SJ wilderness...it seems to lie just outside the border

Secc 33 is outside the wilderness. However, just about all of their water comes from the wilderness area. land that they do not own.

willytinawin wrote: Secc 33 is outside the wilderness. However, just about all of their water comes from the wilderness area. land that they do not own.

And so does ALL the water that you and millions of other CAL humans drink.

Moot point!

The Chief wrote:

willytinawin wrote: Secc 33 is outside the wilderness. However, just about all of their water comes from the wilderness area. land that they do not own.

And so does ALL the water that you and millions of other CAL humans drink.

Moot point!

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, and me, mine. It's one thing to get free water and sell it for a profit. It's quite another to be an asshole and tell people who want to climb the nicest face in Southern California basically "no". The few people who go up there each year aren't hurting anything. Perhaps they own sec 33, but they act like they own the entire north face.

Go ahead, shout out a reply

BTW, my water does not come from the Owens Valley, it's a local source.

I'm guessing that the water I use has probably been around the globe many times. Heck, a few molecules were probably consumed by Aristotle. The clouds often form miles away before they dump on the watersheds in the Colorado Plateau.

But these philosophical issues don't seem to be of concern for the folks who have written the Colorado Water Compact. We in Nevada get some, even though most of the rain fell in Utah and Colorado (the state). Hey, even Mexico SHOULD get some.

MoapaPk wrote:I'm guessing that the water I use has probably been around the globe many times. Heck, a few molecules were probably consumed by Aristotle. The clouds often form miles away before they dump on the watersheds in the Colorado Plateau.

But these philosophical issues don't seem to be of concern for the folks who have written the Colorado Water Compact. We in Nevada get some, even though most of the rain fell in Utah and Colorado (the state). Hey, even Mexico SHOULD get some.

At least you are cool about it and don't go storming around ordering everyone within 5 miles of your property to go to jail.

willytinawin wrote:It's one thing to get free water and sell it for a profit.

DWA is a public agency. I don't think their gig is a for-profit scam.