All I know is that it took me half the time to lasso the summit block than it took the stud in the video to climb the high altitude boulder problem. If I had tried to lead it, my shaky legs would have sent the SAR boys on a wild ride to come fetch me at 14k.

I dig climbing old school routes because you aren't afraid of the difficulty until you're committed to their steeps and forced to climb at your best. I'm also a fan of running into other people who exclaim "that was no 5.8!" All you can do is laugh and know the feeling all too well.

If you hate underrated climbs Senior Wombat, well you just gotta climb in Eldo Canyon!


"5.8 my ass!"

The first ascenders used a shoulder stand on Thunderbolt. So what would that rating be, C0 or C1?

jspeigl wrote:The first ascenders used a shoulder stand on Thunderbolt. So what would that rating be, C0 or C1?

And the circle is complete

Snowslogger wrote:

jspeigl wrote:The first ascenders used a shoulder stand on Thunderbolt. So what would that rating be, C0 or C1?

And the circle is complete

yes, it is.

jspeigl wrote:The first ascenders used a shoulder stand on Thunderbolt. So what would that rating be, C0 or C1?

Maybe it depends on how many moves it takes to climb the taller guy and how baggy his clothes are, since it is harder to hold onto the slicker, tighter clothes. I'd say it could have been C1 if the human aid piece were a spandex-wearing basketball player

This Post got a bit off subject while Pen and I were having fun in the Sierra.

PW, just to respond to your earlier comment to me. If your First Ascent was rated free by you, there will not be subsequent C or A rating given to your climb, ever. The rating will always be free. People can TR the route to make it easier, they may also aid it cleanly. It is not in good style to pound pins into a free climb or add any hardware to it. So regarding the Thunderbolt, you can debate the rating as soft, about right, or sandbag, but you really cannot give TR, C or A rating to something that was climbed free for many, many years. Cheers, Alois.

These arguments are SO FUNNY.

asmrz wrote:. . . . If your First Ascent was rated free by you, there will not be subsequent C or A rating given to your climb, ever. The rating will always be free. People can TR the route to make it easier, they may also aid it cleanly. It is not in good style to pound pins into a free climb or add any hardware to it. So regarding the Thunderbolt, you can debate the rating as soft, about right, or sandbag, but you really cannot give TR, C or A rating to something that was climbed free for many, many years. Cheers, Alois.

Thanks for the clarification on the standards for recording ratings

asmrz wrote: People can TR the route to make it easier...

...but you really cannot give TR, C or A rating... .

Alois, maybe I'm missing something but how does TR'ing a (this) route make it easier? Safer for the follower, yes, but easier?

And a TR rating? I've never seen a separate rating for TR.

Maybe a wrong choice of words (with me that happens here and there), but TR in this case would be swinging (?) the rope around the block which would then be somewhat easier for the "leader" and really easy for the follower. Re the FA TR rating, I can only give examples from J Tree. By late 80s, bolts started to be frown upon in J Tree and several leading climbers of the day sugested to just TR climbs to avoid placing bolts. In J Tree, there are many climbs which were FA as TR. Not really applicable to backcountry climbing in the Sierra.

Ahhh I see, if the first ascent was done as a toprope, its recorded that way. Makes perfect sense, thanks for the explanation. Now that you mention it I do recall reading about a few first ascents in Josh as being done on toprope. Interesting.

For Thunderbolt though, if you swing the rope around the summit block (which we did), as long as the leader (or follower) doesn't hang on the rope, I don't see how that makes that climb easier. Still 5.8 (or V0 ) for both climbers.

There is a great account of the first ascent in 1931 here:
http://angeles.sierraclub.org/sps/fifty ... epart1.pdf
Scroll down to 1931.
The only bolt up there was the one that almost nailed Jules.
Here is the salvaged image of the fellows on the summit, Lewis Clark's photo:

L to R: Norman Clyde, Glen Dawson, Francis Farquhar, Jules Eichorn, Robert Underhill.

benjamingray wrote:For Thunderbolt though, if you swing the rope around the summit block (which we did), as long as the leader (or follower) doesn't hang on the rope, I don't see how that makes that climb easier. Still 5.8 (or V0 ) for both climbers.

To answer my own question I'm guessing you (Alois) meant lasso and hanging on the rope, I realized that after i posted...

Bearflag, nice post. I'll have something to read at work tomorrow.