All the climbing on the E Butt of Middle is pretty easy. It's just a long day for someone who's climbing near their limit. You want to be able to lead pretty quickly over 5.7-5.8 terrain and set up gear anchors fast. Some of the route finding is a little tricky, but the Supertopo is very detailed and accurate which helps a lot. A good one to be able to do before EBofMC is Central Pillar of Frenzy, another great climb. If you can fire that one off (just the first 5 pitches) in about a half day, then you should be ready for the longer and more committing EBofMC.

Serenity and Sons is as easy as it gets for multipitch 5.10's in the Valley. There's no commitment factor because you rap the route. The main crux is fighting the crowds as there will often be a lineup at the base. The second crux is the first 50 feet of the climb, which are sort of runout, uncomfortable (jaming low angle pin scars is murder on the ankles) and wet most of the year. After that first pitch the rest of the climb is a blast and goes really quick thanks to bolted anchors at every belay and the most obvious routefinding you could hope for. I'd suggest two routes for this one. Be able to climb Sherrie's Crack (5.10c) over at Patt and Jack Pinnacle. If you're able to redpoint that you'll have the strength and technique to fire any of the finger or hand cracks on the route. IMO Sherrie's Crack is a fair bit harder than the 10d finger crack on P3 of Serenity. The other route is Arches Terrace (5.8R). Pitches 3 and 4 of the Arches Terrace route have similar sort of low angle pin scar climbing that isn't the easiest to protect and the runout climbing in general will get your head straight for the first 50 ft of Serenity. Obviously you shouldn't just hop on Arches Terrace next weekend, but just keep climbing and you'll know when the time is right.

Edit - The "Aid Crack" (5.10a A0) at Swan Slab is also good training for the first pitch of Serenity. It's harder but much easier to protect.

Why not just try and do ALL the 5.8s in the valley? Then you will certainly be ready for the next step. Like, totally dialed! Plus, think of the fun and adventure of trying climbs that exist (to your knowledge) as nothing more than a line on a page in a book!
Perhaps you should ask yourself, why are you climbing? What are your end-all-be-all goals? What is the reason you need these recommendations for climbs as opposed to just saying (in psuedo-code): x=[all climbs in book==5.8]; climb_this_week=x(randnum(1:length(x)))?

you should post over on Supertopo. you will get tons of replies. Chris M. will personally reply to your R rating disagreements.

my understanding of R rating is for gear placement availability, not the danger/results of falls. also, sometimes people might read too much into a guidebook description. such is the case with Nutcracker. i read about that crux, climbed it and was like... i'm glad i didn't listen to other people or the guidebook because it wasn't a big deal. just a quick mantle and you are over the crux. my experience from using Tuolumne Meadows and Yosemite Supertopo is usually on point, for my expectations. again, the ratings are subjective. one man's safe climb is another man's death wish. hope you get your answers.

Pretty good advice from Bryan. I'd take a couple of exceptions to what he said, but pretty minor at that.

Like he said, the E. Butt of MCR is really pretty straightforward: you've got maybe half a pitch of 5.9, a short bolt ladder you can aid if need be, and the rest is 5.7 and 5.8. It's is far easier than the Serenity/Sons link up. It would probably be a good test to see how well you move on a longer climb before dealing with a bunch of consecutive 5.9/10a pitches on S/S. I did the E. Butt during my first week of climbing in the Valley. The climbs I did beforehand were Royal Arches, Harry Daley route and the Jam Crack. Though we aided the bolt ladder, nothing on it felt really hard. The 5.8 pitch high up is pretty solid for the grade, and there's a 5.7 pitch without much pro (but pretty secure feeling), but it's all there. One caveat though, I had done alot of trad at Josh and Idyllwild and so felt pretty comfortable leading 10a and bs.

I'd check out the following routes to progress through the grades. Keep in mind that the Valley can throw all kinds of interesting stuff at you, even if it's "only 5.8." Since I'm at the office and away from my guide, this is just off the top of my head:

5.9s
Lena's Lieback
Positively 4th St.
La Cosita
Reed's Direct (1st two pitches)
Shuttle Madness
Central Pillar of Frenzy

5.10a/b
Sacherer Cracker
Knob Job
Jojo
Maxine's Wall (1st pitch)
Peruvian Flake
first two pitches of Serenity
Outer Limits (1st pitch)
Bev's Tower
Gripper (I know it's supposed to be the standard for .10b, but the short crux feels hard)
Highway Star
Maple Jam
Stone Groove (haven't done it, but it looks good)
Chingando (most people TR after doing the Iota (5.4))

.10c
Lunatic Fringe
Mr. Natural
Sherrie's Crack
1st pitch of Salathe

.10d
Crammin'
Five and Dime
Never got to the base of Sentinel but these are supposed to be awesome:
Vanishing Point
Yin-yang
Manana

Contrary to what's been said, while I don't advocate it, you can take falls on your typical Valley crack. It should be vert or pretty close to it, and you can stitch it up with pro at your waist if you choose. You never know what you're capable of until you push yourself, so pro it good and push yourself.

Having said that, you're biggest problem appears to be your head. If you've TR'ed hard .10s (and climb .11 indoors) and you've only managed to do a couple of 5.9s, there's a big disconnect between what you can do and what you're willing to do. One mental trick I've used (though only for face climbing) is to TR something hard and then hop on your intended lead. If you've just TR'ed a .10d, I guarantee that .10a/b is going to feel pretty mellow in comparison. Once you've convinced yourself you can climb that hard, you won't backslide. To use myself as a comparison, when I was 15, my hardest lead was a 5.8. I knew I could climb harder, so I jumped on a 5.9 and after doing that tried the .10b next door. I never slid back (though there's always that weird 5.9/10a that will mess with you). From what you've written, I KNOW you're capable of making a similar jump.

Other things to try are bouldering, working on harder stuff but also working on climbing with control, possibly even statically, just as you might on a lead. If you can boulder, say, V2 or V3 then, again, 5.10a is going to feel light. I see lots of people coming out of the gym climb as if they're on toprope or only two feet out from a bolt--sloppy, slapping for everything, etc. You just can't do that on a trad lead. Climbing in control is a learned skill, but lots of people don't want to bother with it because they seem more interested in pursuing big numbers, not style. You can also find some boulder cracks to TR. The guide has a few: Dynamite Crack (10d thin), Monster Crack (.11a hand/fist). There's stuff at Swan Slab. Get the technique down, learn to work stances, shake out, milk a good jam for a rest, etc.

Personally, I don't think the first pitch of Serenity is anywhere near as tricky as the crux, which is why it used to be rated 5.9. Even now it's still considered 5.10a, but barely. The second pitch feels much more true to .10a. The first pitch pros well too, contrary to what some claim. I think the .10d IS tricky, in part because the crack fizzles out near the top, so you can't necessarily beef your way thru it.

My plan would be to do a fair number of 5.9s and 10as. You can probably do either Central Pillar or E. Butt, depending on which you feel like or can get on first. Do a few more harder climbs. If you can lead Crammin and set up a TR on it, you'll be plenty strong to do Serenity. Personally, I thought the crux of New Dimensions (.11a) felt easy after doing Crammin. It's great to set goals, but be open to the enjoyment of all the routes you'll climb en route to your projects. Years later, they're as vivid in my memory as the bigger things I climbed afterward.

tiogap - I'm just hoping for Middle Cathedral this fall as a BHAG (Big Hair Audacious Goal). Potentially possible if I really work for it, but definitely not expected. Serenity-SonsOfYesterday is something I was thinking of working up to over the next 1-2 years.

granjero wrote:Why not just try and do ALL the 5.8s in the valley? Then you will certainly be ready for the next step. Like, totally dialed! Plus, think of the fun and adventure of trying climbs that exist (to your knowledge) as nothing more than a line on a page in a book!
Perhaps you should ask yourself, why are you climbing? What are your end-all-be-all goals? What is the reason you need these recommendations for climbs as opposed to just saying (in psuedo-code): x=[all climbs in book==5.8]; climb_this_week=x(randnum(1:length(x)))?

Oh, don't you worry. I want to do ALL of them! Same with finishing off the 5.6s and 5.7s (including going back and leading the routes or pitches that I had followed or TRed. Not too far away from doing that now). I just want some variety and I've found that sometimes a harder grade can be easier than an easier grade. So it would be nice to focus on 5.8 climbs, while doing an occasional 5.9 and very occasional 5.10a. Hopefully by the time I'm done with the 5.8s then I'll be more than ready to hit up the next grade very well!

Byran - Exactly the type of experienced opinions I'm looking for. Thanks! For preparing for Middle Cathedral my main interest is climbing 5.7 & 5.8s very fast and efficient, which means I expect to have a lot more mileage done on 5.8s by then and be leading pretty solid on 5.9 before I try the route. Good to know that CPoF would be good to try to do first. I did the crux of Sherrie's Crack clean on my first attempt (on TR, so, yeah, I was thinking it would be a good lead to work on). Good to know to work on it for honing that type of technique.

Kevin - My response about the R rating is that whether or not a route has that doesn't really say that much on how safe it is to fall on a route. So I don't really care about the R rating beyond giving a route that much more respect for the grade before I hop on it (I care about the details of the R, but that's another matter!). Of course I'm not looking to fall on a route, just to do routes where I'm willing to take a higher risk in falling to work my lead head (e.g. I've found that by climbing more 5.8s I'm a lot more comfortable climbing 5.6s with bad falls or running out the pro strategically on easier ground)

fatdad - Thanks for the recommendations and advice! I'm not looking to "bag" a route or grade, and until recently I thought these climbs were beyond my ability to ever reach. Seeing how things are suddenly 'clicking' for me, and seeing the big disconnect between what I'm currently climbing and what I 'should' be climbing I decided to get more serious about pushing my comfort zone and keeping up with regular training and focusing on working technique instead of just climbing around (e.g. doing laps on climbs, downclimbing, attempting best technique on easier climbs, focusing on efficiency of placing pro or transitioning between pitches to fit in more climbs while still having fun & being safe, etc.). I'd hope these classic routes (and others) would provide good focus for training, and be a great reward to do them once I've adequately prepared so that I can enjoy myself on them instead of jumping on them too quickly.

While you certainly can do all of the 5.8s, you certainly don't have to in order to progress to the next level. I know people who did a "pyramid" approach like that at places like Joshua Tree, and while they became pretty solid at the grade, it seemed an impediment to actually moving up. They got good, but they really didn't seem to be getting any better because they never pushed themselves, not much physically and certainly not mentally. It would be like doing the same mt. bike ride over and over. It's never going to feel that much easier until you ride harder stuff.

If you want to do all the 5.8s, great. There's a ton of good ones to do. I'd certainly like to finally climb the Braille Book and Bishop's Terrace, etc. However, don't feel like you have to in order to bump up to higher grades.

Byran wrote:All the climbing on the E Butt of Middle is pretty easy. It's just a long day for someone who's climbing near their limit. You want to be able to lead pretty quickly over 5.7-5.8 terrain and set up gear anchors fast. Some of the route finding is a little tricky, but the Supertopo is very detailed and accurate which helps a lot. A good one to be able to do before EBofMC is Central Pillar of Frenzy, another great climb. If you can fire that one off (just the first 5 pitches) in about a half day, then you should be ready for the longer and more committing EBofMC.

Thanks for the advice! I worked up to EBofMC in pretty much that way and fired off CPoF the day before in about 4.5 hrs as a final 'test' and things worked out pretty well. Leading all of the pitches of both routes was a pretty good workout too Now on to working towards Serenity & Sons for (maybe) Fall 2012?

Granjero wrote:Why not just try and do ALL the 5.8s in the valley?

If you're only looking at the SuperTopo guide, I'm almost there and they're feeling pretty solid even with a pack on, so I guess now I really should start looking at more 5.9s & 5.10a's

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my advice: too much analysis leads to paralysis


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"grab and go" has been my mantra forever... if i can't grab, i can't go!

maybe this is why i suck at climbing...

Whatever happened to the days that you just tie into a rope with a buddy, go fking climb something that you can do without killing yourselves and having fun at it. Oh, and not ticking off some ego list.

Unfkingbelievable......

two types of climbers... those with lists, and those looking for adventure...

Rob wrote:There's no such thing as safe falls in trad climbing.

dat be true...

especially when a lot of people think cams cannot fail, however sloppily placed...

and because a lot of people still have not figured out how a belay device works.

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The Chief wrote:Whatever happened to the days that you just tie into a rope with a buddy, go fking climb something that you can do without killing yourselves and having fun at it. Oh, and not ticking off some ego list.

Unfkingbelievable......

x15x15 wrote:two types of climbers... those with lists, and those looking for adventure...

No there are two types of climbers- those that are a-holes and those that are not. Good thread among members of a community up until now.

jpsmyth wrote:No there are two types of climbers- those that are a-holes and those that are not. Good thread among members of a community up until now.

Which group do you fall into? To state the obvious, the issue with public posts is that others may express a contrary opinion. That's their right, as it was your's. It's a free country. But, if the OP got the value from the thread he was looking for, why grouse?

tiogap wrote:you say you want to do these routes this fall. I don't know if this is possible on your part, but if you can get to Indian Creek this spring, you will really be able to dial in your crack technique. I climbed for many years in the Valley, and found the cracks in IC to be harder.

Its just what you are used to. When I was a granite whore I found IC hard , but now I'm a sandstone whore and find granite harder. Go figure.


Getting mileage and lots of it is good advise. The concept of all falls are bad, I question. In the past I was of that camp but at some point falls are common place. You have to just understand where a fall in inconcievable and where one is perfectly fine. The beginning of the first pitch of Serenity Crack and the end of the third pitch (unless you sew it up with green c3 size pieces) are such positions. The end of the first pitch and the second pitch of Serenity Crack are places where falls SHOULDN'T be an issue.

a) get amazing at gear placement and be absolutely critical about your placements. Do some aid climbing and bounce test your placements. It will teach you a lot. A bad piece is as bad or worse then no piece. There is no reason trhat in 90%of the situations that you should ever have a piece of gear pull. In 38yrs I've had 3 pieces pull, and one of them someone else had placed and I knew it was bad and I was in the process of replacing it with a better piece.

b) understand when you are in a no fall situation and try to get gear in if possible. It's not always possible and you have to then make critical decisions about is the risk a good risk for YOU today or is it a bad risk. The book "Rock Warriors Way" discusses this in a very good manner.

Climb with people who are better then you arwee and accept critisism constructively. No one is perfect and everyone can improve themnselves. Climbing with people who climb harder then you are day in a nd day out can help you with a mental shift.

b)