The second group: people with ethics (or feelings) and even willing to risk their lives to save others in trouble; reliable.

Well, there is another group: volunteers (and staff) taking a part of Search & Rescue (or Recovery) efforts. Sometimes they die too while helping others.

Which group do you belong to?

I have most often pertained to the two above in the past 44 years of actively partaking in this game. If I have a "selfish" agenda, I do it solo as to not put anyone at risk. Unless some of my regular partners wish to partner up with me. i.e Getting on or putting up some stiff aid lines that entail potentially taking some longass whippers. A4/C4 plus gigs etc.

All irrelevant IMO. One still chooses to be an active participant with whomever (partner) it may be. That responsibility ultimately lies on no ones shoulders other than that of the individual choosing to do so. Regardless of group or discipline IMO.

A5RP wrote:

The second group: people with ethics (or feelings) and even willing to risk their lives to save others in trouble; reliable.

Well, there is another group: volunteers (and staff) taking a part of Search & Rescue (or Recovery) efforts. Sometimes they die too while helping others.

Which group do you belong to?

I have most often pertained to the two above in the past 44 years of actively partaking in this game. If I have a "selfish" agenda, I do it solo as to not put anyone at risk. Unless some of my regular partners wish to partner up with me. i.e Getting on or putting up some stiff aid lines that entail potentially taking some longass whippers. A4/C4 plus gigs etc.

All irrelevant IMO. One still chooses to be an active participant with whomever (partner) it may be. That responsibility ultimately lies on no ones shoulders other than that of the individual choosing to do so. Regardless of group or discipline IMO.

You don't need to say IMO. Whatever you, I or anyone else writes is their opinion (or dishonest statement); unless, there is a reference to or a quote of a specific source.

Also my post as well as the question "Which group do you belong to?" was not personally aimed to you but to the general (SP) audience and constructed based on my experience and perception. "Yours can be completely different" but not "irrelevant."

Irrelevant, however, is what you have climbed; skills and experience are not the same (I'm not implying anything) and are subjective. One person may die in the Sierra on an easy route, another on K2. They are both dead.

A5RP wrote:One still chooses to be an active participant with whomever (partner) it may be. That responsibility ultimately lies on no ones shoulders other than that of the individual choosing to do so. Regardless of group or discipline IMO.

We all know you don't really mean that- just words you are typing I suppose. As a guide I would hope that you saw yourself at least somewhat responsible for assuring your clients' safety. If you didn't then you wouldn't be a very good one.

Similarly, when I head out with others we support the safety of the group and one of our objectives is to assure that none of us is injured or in need of outside assistance. It isn't every man and woman for themselves when we head out.

One person may die in the Sierra on an easy route, another on K2. They are both dead.

Yes.... and they made the choice to do so, in all respects. Thus no one but they should be held ultimately responsible for their death if that so ultimately occurs. That as well is IMO.

That is my point.

As a guide I would hope that you saw yourself at least somewhat responsible for assuring your clients' safety. If you didn't then you wouldn't be a very good one.

Guiding is a whole different issue and has no relevance regarding the OP and the death of one's chosen partner/s.

If my client is a complete newb, I am still responsible for their well being. If I choose to climb with someone that turns out to be the same, I can instantly suspend the activity and depart.

Guiding is held to a way different standard when it comes to responsibility. The client signs a contract (that includes many particulars) and pays a fee for a service rendered. Completely different than a normal climbing relationship between partners.

If something unfortunate did ever happen to one of my partners, I wouldn't simply turn around and say 'it's not my fault' regardless of whether it was or wasn't. I would ask myself 'is there anything I could have done to help prevent what occurred?' regardless of it being my ultimate responsibility or not. Objective is to have a mentality that prevents incidents from occurring no matter who is responsible. I think that is what Eric's post was getting at, and what I was trying to communicate in my post above.

One can do whatever they wish.

Could of, should of and all that stuff for the rest of one's life aint gonna bring em back. Never.

First of all, you or anyone has any real idea what happened on Shasta. You were not there. You nor anyone else has any true right to judge anyone if you were not on that party and present on the scene. Period.

Until anyone here has first hand experience of losing a partner and/or a client, they will never be able to understand the reality of emotions that one who has, goes through. Fact.

There, but for the grace of God, go I.

It's one thing to climb a mountain in good conditions; quite another to deal with darkness, snowfall, whiteouts, fierce wind, and numbness in your hands and feet, inches away from death. Sh*t happens.

Humans are really very fragile. One day, you can be running up a mountain, with a 5 star health report behind you. Two weeks later, you can be recovering from brain damage, learning to walk between parallel bars.

You misread my posts Rick. They were primarily about specific events that have happened since then.

Fact.

I've made some bad decisions in the area the incident occurred and was fortunate to learn from them. I'm sorry to hear of the loss.


I see excellent points all around in this thread.
I suspect some points could be made more effectively in the eyes of some without personal attacks and hearsay.

A5RP wrote:Could of, should of and all that stuff for the rest of one's life aint gonna bring em back. Never.

First of all, you or anyone has any real idea what happened on Shasta. You were not there. You nor anyone else has any true right to judge anyone if you were not on that party and present on the scene. Period.

Until anyone here has first hand experience of losing a partner and/or a client, they will never be able to understand the reality of emotions that one who has, goes through. Fact.

Eric Willhite's flaunting of the message from Tom's mother is absolutely disgusting, IMO. Very shallow and misleading of what he is inferring. Such feelings are not representative of most of Tom's friends and family. Feelings from them are far more complex and diverse. I feel I know a fair amount more than Eric does from his trophy e-mail, since I left my job and spent a month with them during the memorial service and such, and I am still in regular contact with most of them.

For some reason, the people least judgmental and most supportive, and reasonable in true 'lessons learned' in this area have been those on SAR, friends of mine who work with SAR and other emergency services (my WFR classmates & instructors included), and climbers who have also lost loved ones in the mountains. Perhaps this is because it is harder for those people to fall into HUBRIS and it is harder for them to lack EMPATHY.

I'm sick of arguing about Shasta to people who were not there who try to turn the conversation into a 'he said, she said' argument. Tom was as fit & experienced as I was, if not more so, yet one detail some people like to throw in my face is claiming, based on nothing, that Tom was inexperienced and that I lured my best friend to his death for my own personal, selfish reasons, even though I nearly killed myself staying with Tom, and I still suffer from the immersion foot injuries as a regular reminder every time I go hiking and climbing - it is a pain that I don't think will ever go away. Imagine how such claims make me feel, and consider the character of those who like to throw around these baseless accusations (Chad).

I still see Tom dying in my mind's eye every day, and I am not satisfied at all with what was learned from the tragedy (very hollow feeling there), so perhaps I feel entitled to not tolerate people like Chad casually tossing insults and, baseless claims, and absolute judgments around about Mt Shasta in an infantile way to win an argument by making a cheap emotional jab and attempting to divert any argument into a "Mark & Mt Shasta" DEFAMATION rant.

Fine.

If you don't believe me and want the professional, impartial judgement of the accident and what the true critical factors and lessons were, refer to the 2011 Accidents in North American Mountaineering. The findings there were written by the journal author, and the head of the SAR effort, Eric White. Now if there was anyone who would be in a knowledgeable position to pass judgment on what happened, and who would be motivated to report lessons learned to discourage a repeat of such a tragedy, it would be Eric White.

Mark - So sorry to see/hear that you are having to relive the sadness here again.

Mark, I would also like to say what Deb expressed above. I think most of us feel your pain, your feelings that are normal and the ugly part of this as well. There are good people everywhere in this activity/sport, but we also have total idiots among ourselves. Don't you pay any attention to them.

twoshuzz wrote:I'm curious as to just how this incident on Langley is even remotely related to that which occurred on Shasta. Just what does one have to do with the other ?

Seems to me no constructive purpose is being served, that notion being lost long ago.

How about we all move on, or at least keep from turning unrelated threads into yet another Shasta debate ?

The usual suspects casting stones.

Apparently Mark, Twoshuzz, and Marmaduke (Marmaduke as usual) are having the same issues Rick had. See my post above.

Mark apparently I have to spell it out more simply for you. My post was not about what happened on Shasta, but what has happened S I N C E T H E N. Get it? Still confused? Back when the Shasta events happened I backed you up (how quickly you forget), it is the careless and reckless behaviors following that has affected my opinion.

S I N C E T H E N how many close calls have you had? How many SARs have you been involved in? (hint- the answer is a number- hopefully one digit- not another five paragraph diatribe). And BTW- I doubt Tom's mother was trying to represent her family, but rather reflect her own feelings. You were whining Friday about how you wished she would be more open with you and discuss these things with you, but I don't think she owes you anything.

You keep saying baseless accusations... what exactly have I accused you of? Being involved in more than your fair share of SAR activity? That is true is it not?

I think we see, but it is inevitable that the Shasta stuff crept in here, so some of us just want to defuse that part of the discourse.

Some people, who get involved in tragic situations, tend to seek out similar risks later, to prove they can deal with the uncertainties, face fears, and have better outcomes.