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newbie question belaying from top with setback anchors

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Re: newbie question belaying from top with setback anchors

Postby Ben Beckerich » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:19 am

Hmm... I'm not exactly sure what the heck is going on in the OP, but I can tell you it's overly complicated, and wrong, if you're belaying with static rope.

Anchors set back from the edge... want to use them for belaying a top-rope... Just get some webbing or cordage to run down over the edge from the anchors, and run the DYNAMIC climbing rope through two locking carabiners at the end of your web/cord. If you don't know how to set up a top-rope anchor, you need to look it up somewhere- lots of books and videos on youtube cover this ad nauseum.

If you want to belay from above, hang the belayer from the same anchor, or isolate him on a seperate anchor, setup similarly.

The only static anything should be your anchor material..
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Re: newbie question belaying from top with setback anchors

Postby Ben Beckerich » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:48 am

gbeane wrote:you dumb asses,


I stopped reading right there.

Suck it, dude.
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Re: newbie question belaying from top with setback anchors

Postby sdavis » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:10 am

I think you are looking for a 'belayed rappel." Here's one version which I haven't used:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/92945331/Top- ... yed-Rappel


Another version which I have used was in an issue of Rock and Ice 5 or 6 years back. It involves creating two anchors. Easy to set up, complicated to explain. Perhaps someone else can remember that issue.
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Re: newbie question belaying from top with setback anchors

Postby nartreb » Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:59 pm

I'm scratching my head wondering why you'd need a "lowering system" in addition to a belay.

The simplest solution is to lower directly from the Guide.

Are you contemplating using the Guide in blocking mode? Then you'll need to release the Guide to lower, plus have a whole separate braking system, plus have a safe way to transition back to the Guide for ascent. Inevitably more complicated.

If you insist on that, then yes, use your existing static line to build a second anchor point. But don't just slip/clip anything on a single strand above your figure 8-on-a-bight. Your lowering system *is* your anchor while your'e using it, so give it a real knot that includes both strands (or use two knots -> two loops, one from each strand). Remember SERENE.
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Re: newbie question belaying from top with setback anchors

Postby brenta » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:50 pm

I believe gbeane is referring to this.
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Re: newbie question belaying from top with setback anchors

Postby KeithN » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:42 pm

I've always found lowering with an auto-blocking device a real pain in the ass. I understand the safety factor with the redirected free end of the rope, but it makes the lower even more jerky and difficult - I've had better luck with a carabiner through the release hole (gotta be a better term for that) and brake hand on the rope to control the rate of descent. With your set-up, you ought to be able to position yourself above the device anyway, so the redirect would be unnecessary. OTOH, perhaps it's time to invest in a Gri-Gri or the like, it might make your life a lot simpler.
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Re: newbie question belaying from top with setback anchors

Postby nartreb » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:58 pm

Thanks Brenta,

I was wrong to say you'd need "a whole separate braking system". In that system, the Guide is still functioning as half the braking system, and you can trivially re-lock the Guide by releasing your body weight (unless you get hit by a rock or something). That makes it trivial to transition back to locking mode for ascent. In the video I didn't get a good look at where he clipped his braking strand, but you need the braking strand to stay above the Guide even if one of the top strands fails, so I still say to clip to a real power-point if you're planning on doing laps like this. (OTOH, even if the brake strand drops below the Guide, the autobock should save your partner by jamming in the Guide.)

A simple way to set your static rope would be to leave a long bight on your figure-eight-on-a bight, then knot again halfway down the bight. Now you have two power-points, one right above the other.
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Re: newbie question belaying from top with setback anchors

Postby divnamite » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:16 pm

gbeane wrote:The question was, normally you would clip in a couple strands at your top shelf to redirect your brake strand when lowering someone with a ATC-Guide (look up the ATC-Guide lowering setup that uses a redirected brake strand w/autoblock backup). The only place to clip above the ATC-Guide on this setup is clipping one strand right over the figure-8 (and if one of the two anchors failed, anything clipped up here would slide off the rope), unless I add another knot above it. I could add another figure-8 on a bight on one of the strands leading to an anchor, or I could add a overhand above the figure-8 on a bight that is the master point.
Just asking for what the "standard" would be in this kind of setup.

I don't think there is a "standard" here. If I understand you correctly, you are trying to lower a climber while the ATC is in guide mode. I don't like this set up because it's a pain, and easy to mess up if you aren't paying attention.
If you do a lot of top rope in this type of settings, why not investing in a grigri? You'll find that it's a lot easier to belay and lower. If you don't want to spend the money, why not belay off the harness? Redirect the rope to the master point, this way, you can easily lower as well as belay.
If you insist on using ATC in guide mode wile top belay, then you just have to experiment a little and see which way is more efficient.

BTW, top roping with a static rope is perfectly fine.
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Re: newbie question belaying from top with setback anchors

Postby Wastral » Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:18 am

Good response to lazy dumb asses who don't even bother to read what you wrote before responding.

Dumb asses whose eyes glazed over after the first sentence and just felt oh so compelled to blather their stupidity to the whole world. :oops: :shock: :o :evil: :roll:

Thanks for pointed out their lazy incompetence!

Keep up the good work!

Answer to your question: Prussic cord wrapped on your anchor line with a biner to hold. I always carry at least two loops strung around my neck and shoulder under other slings for self rescue and often also use them for placing around the anchor area to hold junk if I used all my webbing for pro placement/anchor building. Others sometimes use kleimhiest knots with webbing, but I don't like them.

gbeane wrote:you dumb asses, the static rope is for reaching from the fixed anchors set back from the cliff edge to the belay stance. I'm not sure how you thought anyone was using static rope to climb on. There are two fixed anchors set _way_ back from the cliff edge, so we use some beefy static rope to reach from them down over the edge of the cliff to a nice belay stance. 25 feet of static rope with a loop tied on one end and clipped to one anchor. The other end of the rope is clove hitched to the other anchor so the length can be adjusted, then a figure-8 on a bight, and a couple lockers, and some dynamic climbing rope for belaying. It doesn't get much simpler than that. Yes, you could use webbing. That isn't the point. If you don't understand that, then ask for clarification before making nonsensical replies.

Since it is a sea cliff only accessible from above, the second climber has to get belayed from above. Not a big deal. That isn't what the question is. The question isn't about setting up a top rope anchor either -- which can't be much simpler, considering there are fixed anchors specifically for this purpose.

The question was, normally you would clip in a couple strands at your top shelf to redirect your brake strand when lowering someone with a ATC-Guide (look up the ATC-Guide lowering setup that uses a redirected brake strand w/autoblock backup). The only place to clip above the ATC-Guide on this setup is clipping one strand right over the figure-8 (and if one of the two anchors failed, anything clipped up here would slide off the rope), unless I add another knot above it. I could add another figure-8 on a bight on one of the strands leading to an anchor, or I could add a overhand above the figure-8 on a bight that is the master point.

Just asking for what the "standard" would be in this kind of setup.
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Re: newbie question belaying from top with setback anchors

Postby mattyh » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:19 pm

Sounds to me like you have an excellent system. only thing I would change in my opinion is static rope to tubular webbing. that is the only thing i would do different because of the static line going over an edge. if the edge isnt close to 90degrees i wouldnt mind, but i like how flexible tubular webbing is compared to static lines. Also grigris could be a good investment but its up to the person. they are great to have and know how to use for stuff like picking a frozen climber off the wall, however, i stay away from them as much as i can.... i just dont like belaying off them.
Good work, and hope this helps.
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Re: newbie question belaying from top with setback anchors

Postby logsden » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:54 pm

Sounds like you've got a decent understanding of your options.

I'm not sure why you were deleted. The early posters didn't take the time to figure out what you were describing. They're fault.

Your solution to get around the lack of a shelf is fine. You are not using your secondary re-direct knot as a 'Master Point' so ... if you like following rules ... then you aren't really wandering outside your ERNEST criteria. Alternatively, I can think of a couple knots to use instead of a standard figure-8 on a bight that would provide you with (effectively) two master points. That might make your life slightly easier. A little web research might help you more than any description from me.

As an fyi...lowering a heavy climber with that standardized Guide Mode lower setup can be kind of a pain in the ass. Although it does work just fine. You might instead consider re-orienting the ATC into standard mode off a second master point (or shelf) with a re-direct for the brake strand. It's quick, easy, and safe. Do some research or find someone to instruct you on how to transition safely.
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