Welcome to SP!  -
Areas & RangesMountains & RocksRoutesImagesArticlesTrip ReportsGearOtherPeoplePlans & PartnersWhat's NewForum

Avoid village of Pallcca/Ocongate Region Peru?

Regional discussion and conditions reports for South America. Please post partners requests and trip plans in the South American Climbing Partners section.
 

Avoid village of Pallcca/Ocongate Region Peru?

Postby Jesus Malverde » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:41 pm

If this story is true, it's pretty freaky..
Maybe something to consider if you are making travel plans to the area.
http://adventureamericas.wordpress.com/ ... e-in-peru/

Hat tip to Jason Martin over at American Alpine Institute:
http://alpineinstitute.blogspot.com/201 ... ng+News%29
User Avatar
Jesus Malverde

 
Posts: 238
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 1:17 pm
Location: Battle Mountain, Nevada, United States
Thanked: 75 times in 53 posts

Re: Avoid village of Pallcca/Ocongate Region Peru?

Postby Dow Williams » Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:48 pm

A bullshit one sided propaganda story told by a few spoiled young Americans with entitlistic fever.
User Avatar
Dow Williams

 
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:59 pm
Location: Utah and Canadian Rockies
Thanked: 219 times in 101 posts

The following user would like to thank Dow Williams for this post
John Duffield

Re: Avoid village of Pallcca/Ocongate Region Peru?

Postby Marmaduke » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:33 pm

How do you come to that conclusion Dow? One sided yes but "bullshit...propaganda...spoiled...entitlistic fever"?
User Avatar
Marmaduke

 
Posts: 1340
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:08 am
Location: Sonoma, California, United States
Thanked: 587 times in 452 posts

Re: Avoid village of Pallcca/Ocongate Region Peru?

Postby Dow Williams » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:45 pm

Good source of mine. Not willing to get into it here myself (don't have time to post on SP forums sry)....you will just have to live with it as one man's opinion...given forth in defense of this village and its people. I am very familiar with this story. You all have at it...but of course already been beaten to death at taco and MP (pun fully intended). I know SPers love mayhem and death, but you are a day late, dollar short on this event.
User Avatar
Dow Williams

 
Posts: 2349
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:59 pm
Location: Utah and Canadian Rockies
Thanked: 219 times in 101 posts

The following user would like to thank Dow Williams for this post
John Duffield, Marmaduke

Re: Avoid village of Pallcca/Ocongate Region Peru?

Postby Damien Gildea » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:10 pm

I read the blog post in question but not all seven pages of the ST thread. Too much crazy crap there. There are plenty of warning signs in these travellers' comments about the incident and their travels, to make a reader wonder what really happened and what is going on.

But we don't know, and unsubstantiated rumour and 4th party gossip doesn't mean much, nor do snide, vitriolic posts of no substance or insight. Maybe they had a few too many drinks, crashed the truck, or drove where they shouldn't have and handled an innocent approach by the locals badly and things escalated. But in the absence of an informed comment, we can't know. If the 'truth' exonerates the villagers then why not out with it?

I was near this area 18 months ago climbing Ausangate, doing the Circuit, plus another more remote trek in the Eastern Vilcanota, where they see few, if any, gringos. It's an amazing area, neglected by climbers since the 60s and 70s. Most of the locals I met were great, like pretty much everywhere, but I couldn't help noticing in some villages there were relations and tensions that could got the wrong way if approached or handled badly. We had locals (two arrieros/horsemen) with us and that definitely helped things along. In one village there was a big party going on, most men were drunk, and our camp got approached a few times by drunken village 'officials' all wanting some kind of 'camping fee' - maybe $2 or so. Such is life in the world.

There is an attitude, especially in climbing/expedition circles, left over from the 70s or whatever, that places like Peru, Bolivia etc are like some kind of mountain wilderness, a free for all place to wander and do what you want. But these places are peoples's farms and backyards and grazing areas. They're not National Parks or wilderness areas - you are wandering through their property. You wouldn't just set your truck up in some random backyard in Canmore or Bishop or Jackson and you shouldn't do it in Ocongate either. Many places in these areas now approach trekkers for some kind of contribution for camping there, as is their right, and they're also worried about disturbing llama herds, your horses eating their grass, gringos leaving rubbish, exploitative mining exploration and other things. If some gringos rock into a small village in a fancy truck you can't blame the locals for wondering what they might be doing. It's not a holiday resort.

If indeed there was such severe mob violence as described, then there is no excuse for that. There have been violent - unprovoked - attacks on gringos in remote Andean areas for years. But they are the exception, not the rule. There was even an Alpinist mag story years ago about one (in the Urubamba valley area near Salcantay) and there were several incidents in the Cordillera Real in the 90s. On the way into Illimani in 1999 we had kids throw a few rocks at us just for the hell of it. Such is life in the world.

I'm sure the story will come out in time, but it's no reason to avoid Peru.
Last edited by Damien Gildea on Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
User Avatar
Damien Gildea

 
Posts: 1357
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2002 6:19 pm
Thanked: 218 times in 132 posts

The following user would like to thank Damien Gildea for this post
attimount, Buz Groshong, John Duffield

Re: Avoid village of Pallcca/Ocongate Region Peru?

Postby Scott » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:05 am

But they are the exception, not the rule.

I'm sure the story will come out in time, but it's no reason to avoid Peru.


+1. I've been to the Andes many times (Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, and Bolivia) and have met nothing but friendly people (except for maybe a few taxi drivers). There are horror stories out there, but attacks on gringos are rare. Most people in the Andes actually like gringos, especially in the remote areas (where encounters with gringos are very rare). You still have to keep your guard up, just as you do in many areas of the world.

exploitative mining exploration


There is truth to that. Some American companies (especially oil) have done some bad things to the people in those countries.
User Avatar
Scott

 
Posts: 7582
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:03 pm
Location: Craig, Colorado, United States
Thanked: 683 times in 363 posts

The following user would like to thank Scott for this post
John Duffield

Re: Avoid village of Pallcca/Ocongate Region Peru?

Postby Buz Groshong » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:02 am

If you take what they have said at face value, then you have to conclude that they are at least incredibly stupid. You just don't pull a truck off on a dirt road and spend the night in the back country of Peru any more than you would in many back country areas of the US. If you want to visit Peru, you should count on spending some money on the local economy - hire locals, buy goods from them, and pay them for accommodations - you just can't expect a free ride, especially if you look rich. Showing up in a truck that the locals can't afford and expecting free accommodations is incredibly insulting.
User Avatar
Buz Groshong

 
Posts: 2834
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:58 pm
Location: Alexandria, Virginia, United States
Thanked: 682 times in 479 posts

Re: Avoid village of Pallcca/Ocongate Region Peru?

Postby clmbr » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:30 pm

Damien Gildea wrote:. . .
Most of the locals I met were great, like pretty much everywhere, but I couldn't help noticing in some villages there were relations and tensions that could got the wrong way if approached or handled badly. We had locals (two arrieros/horsemen) with us and that definitely helped things along. In one village there was a big party going on, most men were drunk, and our camp got approached a few times by drunken village 'officials' all wanting some kind of 'camping fee' - maybe $2 or so. Such is life in the world.
. . .

Quite a few years ago I spent a night by some lake on the free campground near Moab, UT (USA). The locals came at night on ATVs and drove like crazy between tents making noise and spreading the sand all over just for fun. Fortunately no one got hurt but I worried they might have crushed in to my or other tent. None of the campers said anything.

Another time I camped (also) at free campground not too far from Mt Rainier, WA. Teens from Tacoma visited this place over weekends having fun (which does not bother me). Unfortunately, I was woken up by a noise of running people and a desperate scream approaching my tent and begging for help, for saving his life. (Why my tent? I thought.) The group of about 5 teens led by a girl constantly yelling, "Kill him, kill him", surrounded us. It was a very intense situation; fortunately, I was able to escort the guy to a safe place. However, I've never come back to that so beautiful campground again.

Long time ago a friend of mine traveled to South America’s countries every year and always commented that the poorer the country and people the more friendly they were. Perhaps due to the technology it changes.

Just to be sure, in more or less remote areas I always stay away from houses and hide in forests or in between rocks or hills and keep low profile and still stay on guard and my car is in the position to drive away at any time. I would never stop at such place like these guys did, not to mention celebrate. Even though it may happen very rare (for whatever the reason), I try to avoid becoming a statistic.

I wonder how the story continues. Hopefully they made it back to the USA safely.
User Avatar
clmbr

 
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:21 am
Thanked: 80 times in 60 posts

The following user would like to thank clmbr for this post
Buz Groshong

Re: Avoid village of Pallcca/Ocongate Region Peru?

Postby 7summits » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:10 pm

I was alerted to this story through a panam cyclers mailing list. We cycled all of Peru a few years ago and generally felt very safe, we just avoided the well-known criminal regions of Paijan & Chimbote (two coastal cities with a history of violent robberies/attacks of touring cyclists).

This story is horrible. Blaming travellers for camping on a dirt road (most roads are dirt roads in Peru) for this result, is like blaming a girl for getting raped.

I do wonder about the secrecy in the posts above:
- If the story is not (completely) true, please share why you think/know so so
- If it is, this should be known as well.

No need to make this any more or less difficult or mysterious than it appears to be.

Cheers,
Harry
User Avatar
7summits

 
Posts: 97
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 2:03 am
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Thanked: 2 times in 2 posts

Re: Avoid village of Pallcca/Ocongate Region Peru?

Postby rgg » Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:45 pm

I've never been in Pallca, but I visited the village of Ocongate briefly in 2011. Being 6ft tall and white, I certainly stood out, but people where friendly and didn't treat me suspiciously. From the story, I gather that Pallca is very different in many ways though. To begin with, Ocongate has a police station...

For the record, I certainly do believe the story is true, although perhaps incomplete. But I also believe that the reporting is one-sided. Here is a bit more nuance:
http://chichalimona.blogspot.nl/2013/01/what-really-happened-in-ocongate.html
User Avatar
rgg

 
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:15 pm
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Thanked: 105 times in 84 posts

Re: Avoid village of Pallcca/Ocongate Region Peru?

Postby 7summits » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:18 pm

Thanks RGG. I don't think the blog quoted offers much nuance actually, but some of the comments do.

But they are all still based on assumptions, hence my question: if somebody actually knows some facts for sure (and not just assumptions either way), they should speak up.

Again: no victim should be blamed for being attacked. Ignorance (if any) is no excuse for violence, but first I would like to know facts, from both sides (or make that 3 sides: theirs, theirs and the truth).
User Avatar
7summits

 
Posts: 97
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 2:03 am
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Thanked: 2 times in 2 posts

The following user would like to thank 7summits for this post
Jarpup

Re: Avoid village of Pallcca/Ocongate Region Peru?

Postby advance » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:30 pm

I registered just to respond to this topic. It really infuriated me.

As a traveler who just finished 2 years in Latin America, including almost 6 months in Bolivia/Peru and 10 months in Colombia, I must say I am just amazed by the misguided ideas found in the "What really happened in Ocongate?" blog post (http://chichalimona.blogspot.co.il/2013/01/what-really-happened-in-ocongate.html).

In 24 months in South and Central America, I met a great amount of people, connected deeply to many of them and was in no form or shape harmed or threatened, except for one event of being robbed in Pasto, Colombia - which I admit was brought on by my being "dando papaya", as the Colombians say: talking on a "flashy" (not really) cellphone into a dark alley, alone, so I could hear the phone call over of the sounds of the festival there. Even then, I know the crime is NOT related to the race or culture of the people, or any aggression or misunderstanding - it was just about 7 teen-aged boys robbing a guy with more money. Back to what was said in the article.

While it is true that the "other side" (the Villagers and "el Presidente") did not have the equal opportunity nor capability to respond to the story publicized (and have not, until now - a month and a half later - responded) and to show "their side", there are some things which are indisputable:

1. The Americans were 3, the villagers were at least 5 to 15 times more.
2. The Americans were gravely hurt physically, and decided to abandon their "dream voyage" because of this. So there is no obvious gain for them in faking their wounds and attack just to get 20,000$, considering they probably gain 4 to 6 times more per year, working in the states.
3. The Americans, as well as thousands if not tens of thousands of other people, have camped in various locations all over Latin America for months and years - and no such brutal attacks have been recorded, as far as I know.

So, let's touch the points made:

1. "What would you do if a truck rolled up into your backyard with three foreigners in it who did not speak your language fluently asking if they could camp there? Would you want to know who these people were? Would you want proof of who they were before you let them stay overnight on your property where you have all of your family, possessions, and livelihood? Would you be suspicious and perhaps even scared if they refused to tell you or show you who they were? Would you then perhaps do everything you could to get those people off of your property?" - In this lovely example, "YOU" are one, while the foreigners are 3. In the story we are discussing, the "YOU" was an entire VILLAGE, tens or hundreds of people, while the foreigners were 3, 2 of which are WOMEN, and they were all *obviously* UNARMED. Do you see the difference?

2. "Although Jennifer's report seems to emphasize that the group clearly communicated their intentions, we cannot really know what messages were being transmitted across language boundaries." - This is so unbelievable silly. Would the author attack a tourist who does not know her language? Unless the tourist shows aggression, would you attack him if you cannot understand him? Even if he does, when he stops showing aggression - would you continue attacking him? Would you hound him, chase him, destroy his car, whip him, take photos of him, kidnap him? I understand the author thinks the entire American version might be a lie. I guess the question is - what does she accept as "true"?

3. "Cattle rustling" - REALLY? And how would they steal cattle, with their caravan? Did they even mention cattle in their story? Are there any known stories of tourists stealing cattle in Latin America? This is so far fetched, I just don't know what to say.

4. "The history of white men rolling up in the Andes .. Suspicion, distrust, and even fear of outsiders are just some of the consequences of this long history. " - Okay, let's say this is true, and that this is the cause of the villagers' actions, whatever they might be. If they attack tourists based on these prejudices, regardless of who the tourists are - they are exactly what the author says they are not: primitive, violent and emotionally driven. If the tourists were the aggressors, what could the Americans have done to deserve the head wounds the women received? The broken and missing teeth the guys suffered? The lashings? What could they have done that would have made the sacking of their truck acceptable? Nothing.

This is without a doubt a case of pure and utter stupidity and violence by a LOCAL VILLAGE GANG, and the fact they have someone called "El Presidente" leading their village (or at least the mob) - and not an ALCALDE, GOBERNADOR or whatever official title - shows it. The Americans had EXTENSIVE medical check ups after their attack, and all of the facts they claimed about the physical attack could be EASILY verified. There is no sense what so ever in thinking they lied about the details of *physical attack*.

I do not think this has anything to do with the average Indigena or Peruano, and I met nothing but amazing people in my months there. I do think this has something to do with a local gang, and I am extremely happy the United States (which is NOT my country) has publicized a Travel Alert for the Cuzco region. This will hopefully cause the government and police of Peru will have to step up and handle the case and discover the truth, as well as the guilty party in this story - and bring it to justice. Also, hopefully they will increase the funding of the Tourist Police and take other measures to prevent future attacks on tourists, including EDUCATION.

I also believe the local tourism will suffer because of this, which will just might cause local members of the tourist industry to have their own justice against this local gang. I do hope so.

I am sorry about any errors in grammar or word usage, talking almost exclusively Spanish for a year and a half fucked up my English a bit.
advance

 
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:14 pm
Location: Israel
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post


Return to South America

 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

© 2006-2013 SummitPost.org. All Rights Reserved.