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Totally insignificant and probably matters only to me but...

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Re: Totally insignificant and probably matters only to me bu

Postby Fletch » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:44 pm

Dow Williams wrote:I can only laugh...humor is the best medicine they say...Summitpost has done everything it can to shun technical climbers...Gangolf and company refuse to feature technical climbing objectives on the main page...it is not just his favoritism bs towards other elfs (look at current selection, not one technical climb...never is) .....rather there is not one elf who is a technical rock or ice climber, never has been. Gangolf or his brethren would have no idea what a classic climbing (no I mean actual climbing) addition would be to SP in any regard.

Folks who climb all the time tend not to spend much time on the internet, thus won't play the photo games...so again, never a good climbing photo gets featured on this site...if a coveted vote garner (someone who trades votes) top ropes somewhere, they might get a climbing photo through the roadside shots, but rarely....even then most current active members would have no clue the difference between top roping at a crag vs climbing an objective. And now.....canyons should appear before routes on "what is new"??? In trying to prove all the climbers who have quit this site wrong, I have hung on....now I am ready to move on as well. The site has nothing interesting to offer currently and will no doubt continue to go the nerd direction since that is who is willing to spend the time discussing any changes, with no objective insight into the varying sports that make up the word climbing. Summitpost does not need to have anything to do with climbing...Mountainproject, rockclimbing and Supertopo already exist. And Mountainproject has made the changes that count. Chris (Supertopo) is heading the right direction as well. That I concede.

Josh Lewis, Matt is impressed with you. If you (or he for that matter) want a paying contract job. I would like my beta copied and developed for google search over to Routepost.com or Gearbeans.com so I can delete it from SP.com. This offer is valid to anyone who is capable. In the end, I will need a programmer and a designer. Since these are paying gigs, I probably need to meet you first, but St. George is not a bad place to visit in the winter. I am, as always, busy climbing and don't really put myself in a position to meet folks to do this kind of work (will be in Jtree most of this week). My email is real easy to find.

Best place to get this done I figure is finding someone familiar with SP and has or can have a working relationship with Matt to make this as smooth as possible for both parties. I am looking to do this with cooperation from you Matt....want to leave in good form regarding our relationship. Always open to work with you, Josh and/or Ryle again someday. The current elf population, causing incredible stagnation to the site, is why I am leaving, not the ownership. Ryle did a great job writing this site up originally and I was really impressed that they did not monetize this thing when everyone else could or would have in the mid 2000's. They have been true to their .org status. I give them that.

Really dude? I'm not disagreeing with anything you said, but really? I thought you took the high road in little shit-fits like this. C'mon man! I'll be the first one to say it --- don't go. Please.

You seem like a heck of a good climber, you are down to earth and appear quite humble. And a lot of people on the site, myself included, respect you without ever having met you.

Do as you will, but take a breather, clear your head, whatever... before you do something big like this.
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Re: Totally insignificant and probably matters only to me bu

Postby mrchad9 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:54 pm

I, for one, think it would be more constructive for this site if major contributors like Dow had more input into how the site was being run.
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Re: Totally insignificant and probably matters only to me bu

Postby Scott » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:10 pm

I would say Scott is a technical climber, and produces good pages, some of which end up on the front page. But as he has noted, if you put up info for obscure places, no matter how good the info is, it will probably get few votes. The Whitney trail will get more views and votes.


I don't know if Dow would consider me to be a technical climber, but it seems to me that most of the route and mountain/rock pages that I have had featured on the front page happened right after someone (someone else or me) added a detailed trip report to the page. I don’t know who picks the front page routes and/or mountain/rocks (I have never nominated any pages, my own or others), but I’m just guessing that at least some of them are picked because rather than read every page on SP, whoever does it sees what good trip reports were added lately and often picks whatever routes/mountains they were applicable to (if they appear to be of high quality).

It’s not always the case, but it seemed to be the case on several occasions.

Summitpost has done everything it can to shun technical climbers


In the old days of Summitpost, technical climbing routes were considered taboo, unless they reached the summit of a "real mountain". Cragging or wall pages were discouraged by many purist.
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Re: Totally insignificant and probably matters only to me bu

Postby mrchad9 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:11 pm

Dow Williams wrote:Stagnant is the word and has been for way, way too long.

I agree. Becoming more dynamic should be the priority above all else. I confess that I believe some changes to the voting system would be an asset in helping future contributions, but don't think it should take priority over making the site more energetic (and I don't think simply changing the look and feel by adding new colors or banners qualifies as an improvement at all).

Just looking at the home page just now... there are 18 total photos on it... only ONE of someone in the process of climbing something. That's bad enough... but what is worse is that 13 of the 18 have or will be there for a week or more, and 80% of the others are just profile thumbnails.
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Re: Totally insignificant and probably matters only to me bu

Postby Scott » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:23 pm

Scott. I (and others) have climbed many hard technical routes leading to summits, including 20+ pitches of 5.10-11, to summits. Bugaboos, Zion, a variety of hefty north faces, along with some other pretty classic shit in N. America.


Actually, I already know and have already read much of your pages (and seen many, many of your photographs).

This has nothing to do with the fact I add a lot of walls and ice vs mountains during the winter months if that is what you are alluding to.


No, that isn't what I am alluding to. I just was pointing out that disagreements on technical submissions (or lack there of) are nothing new and existed even when SP was newer, though some of the debates were different, (and that SP was never geared to only technical stuff, though the arguments existed that it should be). In fact, in the "old days" it was even less geared to technical stuff because cragging, waterfall ice, submissions on walls, etc. were sometimes discouraged. To me, it seems more geared towards technical stuff than it used to be.

I wasn't saying that you only did cragging/waterfall ice at all. Those arguments (cragging/waterfall ice) existed at one time, but are no longer debated as they were back then. However, it is good to point out that, the same points you are making in the above posts are actually some of the same arguments (about "getting stale", "stagnant", "keeping it real", "not hardcore enough", etc.) that existed even back in 2003. I'm not arguing with any of your points, but can say that many of them have existed a long time, even when SP was new. I don't think SP will ever be geared to only featuring hard core climbs or routes, at least it never has been since I've been here. The only way to increase the content or percentage of those is by adding them (which you have been doing). I don't know if SP ever was "hardcore". In fact, in some periods of time in the past, it seems even less so (at least as far as technical stuff goes). When I first started here used to be not that many technical mountains/routes at all, except for the mountain pages on the well known big peaks (Matterhorn, Eiger, K2, etc.), and now there are many (although there are also many, many more non-technical mountains/routes as well).
Last edited by Scott on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:48 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Totally insignificant and probably matters only to me bu

Postby Scott » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:30 pm

I don't know if Dow would consider me to be a technical climber,

I am naive about the naming; but you use technical methods to achieve summits. I remember your descriptions of retrievable anchors -- down-to-earth discussions of physics and all-- they were well beyond what a scrambler, hiker, or peak-bagger (even most canyoneers) would know.


Yes, some people would consider me to be a technical climber. I'm not sure that I'm the type of technical climber that Dow is referring to though (in a different league than what I do) . I guess that's a different topic though.
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Re: Totally insignificant and probably matters only to me bu

Postby Bubba Suess » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:57 pm

Dow, if you want to go then that is your prerogative. However, you have obviously invested a lot into Summitpost. Rather than just up and leave, see how the changes go. Maybe it will improve and be more to your liking. If it is not, then safe climbing! Change is obviously afoot though, and you ought to invest just a little more effort to effect change here rather than expend substantial effort or finances to move your contributions elsewhere.
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Re: Totally insignificant and probably matters only to me bu

Postby mrchad9 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:33 pm

Montana Matt wrote:Initially I thought it would probably take a week or more to make the changes to the database and code to implement a change to the voting system. But if all that has to change is the way the score is calculated, that should only be a day or two. Once that's done, I can move onto something else.

That is great to hear! I had hoped, and anticipated, that it might not be too prohibitive. I truely do think all that is needed is a change to the calculation formula, not a change to the voting process itself. Perhaps this will end up an even easier change than like/dislike system (which requires an interface change).

Note that if we change the range of page scores, I think at some point it may be worth changing how the power points are calculated for the page owners. Currently (according to the faqs) this is an exponential function for high scoring pages. If we modified this (and even simpler basic formula change) perhaps the concern over high profile pages and their scores would be mitigated. I have some ideas here two but didn't want to pile on unitl you were ready. It's much simpler than the page score calculation. (Also I think less important... since it is more invisible to the users... but the impacts will be seen when folks see their profile pages).

Montana Matt wrote:However, the Featured Pages on the right side bar and the POTX images could be randomized to some degree, based on score and a random element. Let me know if you have concrete ideas of what you'd like to see changed Dow and I promise I will listen very intently.

High level thoughts I have include making at least one third of the featured articles, TRs, and pages change daily. The daily change could be to a randomly selected previously featured page (there are TONS in the database by now, that most users have never had the chance to notice). I would change featured pages more frequently in general. Perhaps instead of having them up there for two weeks at a time, have them for 2 days at a time for 25% of the time over a 1 month period (automatically popping in and back out along with other manually selected pages).

I would also change the layout, to put rapidly changing things at the top (like new members and featured photos) and stale stuff at the bottom (like the 'New to SP' links). We all want new members to see those links, but I don't think we are getting the full value of the home page asset with the links where they are.
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